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Building a replica Darjeeling B Tank

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lynbarn, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    I think the real question would be why, other than "just doing it" there are many proven designs that people want to see and drawings are available for.

    Unless you want to inherit characteristics of a previous design then you would need to start from 1st principles. You would also have to decide what you wanted the loco for, previous designs had a market, whatever that was and as such customers either chose something from stock - generally if they wanted small numbers - or designed a specific machine for use in the application along with the manufacturer for larger numbers or very specific requirements.

    I think it would be possible to produce something new with the skills available in the UK, but I suspect the cost of design, especially if it was for a one off would be very high indeed. There are never too many prototypes that survive, they are generally developed and improved upon, this would take time.

    Above all, if you create something "new" then I am not sure it would attract any particular funding as it would not provide a spark for many peoples imagination, such as Lyd has done for example.

    Of course some of the 15" gauge and smaller lines have produced "new" loco's, with some success.

    I think the point made earlier is valid too, most places have enough motive power at present so the impetus to do this would not be too high.

    However, if my numbers come up on the £24million on Friday I might just be tempted to give it a go!

    All the best

    RG.
     
  2. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

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    Rocket science: Tank of fuel, tank of oxidiser, bit of pipe, old dustbin for combustion chamber.

    Hardly hard, is it?
     
  3. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    If you were going to start from first principles, would you go for a reciprocating steam engine? Generally if that is what you want you are going to be inheriting characteristics of previous designs as there are a limited number of variations on that theme. Those that have dared to deviate from that well trodden path have rarely found success (Bulleids Leader, varous Steam turbine locos, Drummond/Webb divided drives, water tube boilers etc etc)
     
  4. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    That is indeed a really good point, I guess serious consideration to water tube, high pressure boilers, such as Doble and Lamont types with automatically controlled fuel and water would need to be considered (especially given the speed at which steam can be raised). Biomass or renewable wood fueled perhaps. Cam driven valve events? The use of combustion engine type piston rings. Some really interesting possibilities.

    I somehow suspect the end result would not look too similar to the machines we know and love today.

    It would be really interesting, from an engineering point of view, to create a "modern" interpretaton.

    Maybe one day. .
     
  5. Merlin

    Merlin New Member

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    There are quite a lot of examples of new steam locomotives in the larger miniature/minimum gauges up to 15 inch from a number of builders, Exmoor Steam railway, Alan Keef, Ravenglass and the Bure Valley locomotives. These do have some common features and I believe most are succesfull or very succesfull. The most succesfull seem to be large, conventional and well made.
    My experience of operating 4 Exmoor steam locomotives over 10 years at Rudyard lake has given a good insight into the issues. The reliabilty has been oustanding (5 failures in 12,000 trains) and the availability very high indeed . Fuel economy has not been a major issue despite the increase in coal costs. However simple changes did make some dramatic benefits i.e.addition of a "brick arch" etc
    The crucial elements from my experience are: high quality initial build, very rugged construction, off the shelf components wherever possible, saturated boilers, locomotives over rather than underpowered.
    A new design on these principles would produce a better result than a copy of a design 100 years old. This seems to be what is suggested apart from the choice of prototype which could not really be described as large

    Merlin
    Rudyard lake steam railway www.rlsr.org
     
  6. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    I'm astonished that any steam locomotive of a reasonable size can be run effectively without a brick arch!

    As for the other features, I agree entirely about rugged construction and the engine to be over rather than under powered, but I would have thought that long travel, long lap valves and inside admission would be essential. Cylinders and motion to be outside the frames is a must no matter which design of valve gear was chosen. Whether the engine would be saturated or superheated would depend on far the stops are spaced. If the Ffestiniog/WHR was to be the target then the loco would need to be superheated for economy.

    Personally I would like to see a 2-6-2T or 2-6-4T with long travel/long lap outside poppet valves, inside admission, and the largest superheated boiler that can be accomodated.

    Just a thought!

    Regards
     
  7. ChrisD

    ChrisD New Member

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    If we see something soaring over the Vale of Ffestiniog, we'll know you've proved your point. AST lets off the first rocket powered by Talisker*......

    CHRIS

    *other single malts are available
     
  8. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Nice to see everyone having an input to the debate but we shall see what happen with this loco project someone has already mentioned one of the two big locos I would like to see in the UK one is a Leek and Manifold 2-6-4T the other is a Darjeeling C class.

    Some time ago there was a discussion about building a modern L&B 2-6-2T (not a Manning Wardle LYD) but something based on what has been learned since the BR 2/3/4 MT classes.
     
  9. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

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    Lyd is a modern L&B 2-6-2T. It's looking increasingly tasty as crews get to grips with it. One FR driver described it yesterday as 'pulling nine and pushing K1' up the 1:40 from Beddgelert. And nine on the WHR roughly equates to 18 on the FR...
     
  10. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Well-Known Member

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    Now who remembers people on here saying that Lyd was a waste of space and not capable of working the WHR?
    Nice to see that she is earning her keep
     
  11. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Yes I would like to know as well, sadly I can only find European or American locos which are still in one piece that could be brought back any info on UK locos would be welcome if they could be used on a large 2ft gauge railway
     
  12. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Very true Andrew she is what I was getting at. Lyd may look like another L&BR Manning Wardle, but underneath it is a very different beast, and as James has said there is the possibilities of yet more developments to come.

    My concern has always been that the L&BR Manning Wardle design (as was) always had a number of unfulfilled questions about it. I guess this is the trouble when you do not have a live example to work on.

    It has always been known, that the old L&BR Manning Wardle design was limited to just four coaches why? Yet on paper, it is capable of hauling more than that. I understand that a modern Heritage/Tourist railway needs locos that can pull a certain amount of stock/ passenger around. My concern was that should the old M/W design be rebuild as was and it proved that it could not pull the skin of a rice pudding then the rebuilt L&BR would not survive very long.

    Some people think I have lost the plot when I say the new L&BR has to have locos that can handle trains of ten L&BR sized coaches to be economic this day and age. Yet we don't hear to many people moaning about the fact that we can see the WHR garratts with 12 on at times.

    Design and Construction of locomotives and rolling stock have gone a long way since then, and with new lighter coaches and engineering developments then it is more than possible to meet modern traffic requirements.

    The thing is how far down the road do you go before you say this is not railway heritage any more.
     
  13. ragl

    ragl Member

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    Some good points there Lynbarn, especially regards, specification, design, construction and being fit for purpose. as you quite rightly say, the purpose these days is the haulage of up to 10 coaches of tourists out for a day's experience of something different from the theme park, garden centre - insert your own vision of modern culture here.

    The reality is - & I know some of you "purists" & rivet counters out there ain't going to like it - we are all playing trains!! Railway heritage??? H,mmm. I'm brave enough to admit what I want from my leisure time.

    Anyway, it all comes down to what YOU want to play with, a replica Darjeeling "B" Class?? excellent idea - if that's what you want. A Leek & Manifold 2-6-4T?? Why not?? if you want it bad enough...... Moel Tryfan, very tempting!! So many choices.

    Anyway Lynbarn, you mentioned Euorpean & American locos in an earlier posting, I would be very interested in learning more as I am in the market for a loco. Time is running out fast, therefore a purchase of a suitable machine to toy with in my retirement will have to be acquired soon. Country of manufacture is not an issue - they are all magnificent machines!!

    Cheers

    Alan
     
  14. MartinBall

    MartinBall New Member

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    Did you see this thread?: http://railways.national-preservation.com/showthread.php/29319-For-Sale-Feldbahn-0-8-0-Locomotive
     
  15. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

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    On the WHR, we're selling the view out of the window rather than the view of a loco with the correct number of rivets. On the FR, we're selling the experience of riding the world's oldest independent railway, but it's people who look out of the window rather than rivet counters who pay the bills.
     
  16. Jordan-Leeds

    Jordan-Leeds New Member

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    see i think its time A wholly New designed loco was procured for use on the FR and WHR one that is built for the job required on it and perhaps with some in reserve this may be a bigger fairlie or perhaps a tender loco.
    as for what i want to see rebuilt i want to see Moel tryfan and Gowrie as modified new builds and indeed if a plan to build gowrie was announced tomorrow i would happily contribute
     
  17. MartinBall

    MartinBall New Member

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    Gowrie is indeed a most distinctive looking loco - it would be nice to see one or other of the early FR / NWNGR locos as new bulds, with suitable modern aspects as with Lyd.
     
  18. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    How abou one of the big Andrew Barclay 0-6-2 tanks from the C&M built for 2foot6 instead of 2foot3 gauge?
     
  19. Baldwin

    Baldwin Guest

    But aren't the rivet counter's those who look out of the window's, as well ?
     
  20. RGCorris

    RGCorris New Member

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    In the 1960s Tom Rolt and David Curwen designed a neat articulated side tank for the Talyllyn, but it never got beyond the paper stage, partly due to the arrival of what eventually became "Tom Rolt" (the loco), partly because it wouldn't have fitted the Wharf headshunt.

    Richard
     

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