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Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Absolutely stunning. A credit to the team at Bluebell. The high quality of the work is evident in every update. It's exciting to realise that we should expect to see the H2 Atlantic, the G5 and the Patriot completed over the next 3 to 6 years with the Atlantic and G5 closest to completion.
     
  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Forgive me for being blunt, but perhaps putting your money where your mouth is would be a place to start. With all this wisdom you have regarding what should and shouldn't be built, extended etc., I'm surprised you haven't set up a lucrative consultancy business. I suspect those who have sweated and toiled over such projects as the Brighton Atlantic may just tell you where to shove such advice if offered though.
    Having an opinion is one thing but those of us at the sharp end do tire of being told we've got it wrong. What we do has never really made sense but we enjoy it and have made great friends along the way. We'll sink or swim together whilst happily ignoring the "I think you'll find......." brigade.
     
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  3. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Besides, as 'advice' goes it's a bit late. The engine is in an advanced state of completion so one way or another there will be a complete Brighton Atlantic within a few years and I for one, not least as an insignificant donor, can't wait.
     
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    And I for one get tired of those who wax sarcastic when someone calls a thing to account. You cannot have any idea how much people have contributed over the years to the cause they support. Hopefully it will be to some purpose

    The challenge for everyone is to ensure that there is something for the next generation to inherit. They won't thank us for leaving worn out equipment or newbuilds that are either incomplete or not especially suitable for the job they have to do.

    PH
     
  5. knotty

    knotty Member

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    I think the greater challenge facing the preservation movement is to attract more of the upcoming generation to become actively involved. To put it indelicately we need replacements for those who pass before they pass. If there is a sufficient critical mass of interest in the next generation then it will survive. Tornado undoubtedly captured the imagination of the public in a broader sense, beyond the more limited pool of people normally interested in railways. I am certain that Tornado lit that spark of passion in more than a few young people.

    As to suitability, be your definition, many of the locomotives that have come down to us are unsuitable for the jobs they have to do. If we could, in an ideal world pick from all the engines classes that existed based on your criteria I'm sure that the mix would we rather different and perhaps rather more limited.
     
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  6. knotty

    knotty Member

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    To add, the Brighton Atlantic will ease the load on other elderly engines (The SECR P classes and Terriers being particularly elderly and unsuitable for heavy loads), thus ensuring their longevity on the Bluebell, reducing the maintenance costs and ensuring that we have more of the original engines for longer. The outlay now will pay off in savings on maintenance of elderly engines who aren't called on to carry the load so frequently. Really, can you not see that?

    The Atlantic is should be considered an investment rather than a cost in that it will pay dividends by reducing wear and tear and consequently maintenance costs on fragile, historical stock. The choice of an Atlantic was undoubtedly determined by the availability of significant components, no least the boiler much in the same way that the choice of restoring a Barry wreck such as a Bulleid Pacific is determined by what exists.

    Edit: And by the standards of your argument, you could argue that the Bluebell railway should not have built the East Grimstead extension as it creates more for the next generation to inherit. Another cost and more to maintain. Or is it not rather an investment that will pay dividends to the Bluebell, attracting more of the public and perhaps more support?
     
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  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Specifically on the Atlantic, I think the "choice" was because a number of older members who remembered the original in service wanted to recreate that specific class. However, it was the availability of a boiler that turned "wouldn't it be nice ..." to "that might just be possible..."

    More generally, given the fact that a new build can reasonably be expected to give quite a few years of relatively trouble-free running once complete, I'd speculate that comparable costs (over, say, fifty years) of maybe construction + three running periods + overhauls might look rather favourable for a new build relative to a Barry restoration of a comparably sized loco that was already worn out when scrapped. It's speculation by me, but I'd wager that the saving on a couple of reasonably quick and simple intermediate overhauls of a loco still with low mileage more than outweighs the higher initial capital cost. Figures for such things are hard to come by, but the nearest comparison that is at least partly in the public domain of two comparable locos concerns Tornado and Flying Scotsman. FS wasn't even in Barry condition when it entered preservation, but the £3million cost of Tornado and presumably relatively straightforward overhauls, at least next time round, do make it look a bit of a bargain relative to FS. Which is not a criticsm of either project - they both have their place - but automatically assuming that a new build is a more expensive proposition than a restoration is not necessarily a safe assumption. The team building the Atlantic (and I'm only a donor, not actively involved in construction) are, I think, quietly confident that they will obtain two or maybe three periods of relatively trouble-free operation with quick overhauls between when finished. And even after three such "ten yearlys", she will only have done perhaps 250,000 - 300,000 or so miles in service on the Bluebell, which is small beer for a mainline express loco.

    Tom
     
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  8. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Exciting times indeed.
     
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  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    A very cogent argument that sadly will fall upon at least one if not two pairs of deaf ears on this forum.
     
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  10. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Sorry to ask and it may of been post before but I can't see it. Does anyone have a completion date?

    Cheers
     
  11. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Absolutely. Did I miss any from that list? Builds, that to my shame I'm less familiar with - the Class 3 '82045' 'Betton Grange' and the Saint Projects perhaps?

    Anyway, I think Jamessquared has articulated the case for new-builds, and specifically for the Bluebell's Brighton Atlantic well. Offloading the work to a new-build with lower maintenance costs for at least the first three overhauls reduces the load on elderly stock, thereby reducing the maintenance costs on these engines.
     
  12. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Thanks Spamcan81. While I understand their concerns I think that they're fundamentally failing to distinguish between a cost and an investment (which perhaps sounds odd when discussing a mostly non-profit movement such as rail preservation).

    The real issue is attracting more people to volunteer their time in all capacities. The Bluebell's growth and development (restorations, new-build and extension) will no doubt the fire the imagination, helping to ensure that more people participate in the movement. Greater interest = more visitors = more people catching the bug and inspired to participate.
     
  13. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Jamesquared can no doubt answer that but I heard about 2015?
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    At the end of the day we enthusiasts will do what we want to do. I struggle to see any sound economic argument for saving a locomotive for posterity as they seldom if ever make a profit for the owners. We do it because we want to do it. In my case it was wanting to put something back into a movement that had given and still gives much pleasure. I had plenty of schemes to choose from but the Battle of Britain connection won the day. Things may change but I think it makes little difference whether the loco is large or small, old or new, they will still need the input of volunteers to keep the wheels turning.
     
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  15. knotty

    knotty Member

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    No exactly. If we were to be brutally rational about it and specifically economically rational, then none of us would invest their time and considerable money in the restoration and maintenance of essentially obsolete technology (I don't mean that disparagingly). We do it for the love of it; for the love of the machine, for the camaraderie with people of like-minds, for the pleasure and excitement it brings to ourselves and others, and because we feel strongly that one can only, truly understand the present through an appreciation and a conscious connection with our past. But when it comes down to it we just like railways. We like engines - (some like Diesels and others like Steam. A few oddballs like both ;-) ) Some of us like a particular engine, the work of a particular engineer, railway company or period and some of us are omnivorous in our tastes. The reasons are multifarious and more emotional than rationally engaged.

    However, within the irrationality that is railway preservation, a rational case can be made for new-builds as I and Jamesquared have attempted to outline. Contrary to the detractors, the concept of a new build is forward thinking (that's not to say that every new-build is of equal merit any more than every restoration but then who determines merit beyond the support that a project can draw?) Elderly stock in regular service wears out requiring the replacement of the original fabric of the engine. What then is being preserved for prosperity? At least with a new-build, the burden is increasingly taken off the most fragile stock (in the Bluebell's case, the Terriers and P classes) ensuring their longevity at least as substantially original machines - more of the original engine lasts longer and the costs of maintenance are reduced.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    It has been said that new builds are a detriment to the host railway as they absorb funds and manpower that could be better used elsewhere. I disagree and interestingly on a shed tour at Wansford on Sunday - and Mr. Hitch will no doubt roll his eyes - the NVR engineering manager said that 34081 (ok not a new build but I fail to see the difference between a privately owned Barry job and a privately owned new build) had been beneficial to the NVR. Prior to her return in 2010, the number of volunteers in the shed could be counted on the fingers of one hand but after 2010 the presence of a well funded and well supported project began to attract more volunteers. Not just to 34081 but to the NVR engineering department in general. They now have work progressing on other projects - they support us and we support them so everyone one is a winner. He said also that a new build would be viewed in a similar vein in that if it had a sound funding basis and brought its workforce with it then he is certain that the railway would benefit in the same way as it's benefiting from my lot. OK so it's only one man's view point but the evidence so far tends to support him.
     
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  17. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Nice to hear of tangible examples from people who ought to know rather than people like me simply postulating from the comfort of my chair. And gratifying to hear that the NVR has attracted more volunteers to their engineering department through the restoration of 34081. Once you've worked gotten your hands dirty in the workshop, it becomes addictive.
     
  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    That is exactly my position. I have no animus against new builds as such, only what IMHO are less than ideal choices.

    Alas I am being Jeremiah again (as Mr. Cable has reminded us lately, he turned out to be right!) to say the same mistakes are being made all over again. That is to say too many express types (sorry Knotty!) In other words I can see some point in turning a "Hall" into a "Grange" but little point in turning one into a "Saint".

    It is indeed a bit like an extension project. No use if you under maintain your civil engineering in order to extend your line. No use at all if your money earning motive power fails because there is a nice sexy new project around.

    PH
     
  19. knotty

    knotty Member

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    I guess we'll have to continue to agree to disagree about the suitability of express types not least because even by your own definition there is no one ideal engine type to meet all present day needs across all preserved railways and mainline use. Theoretically, if there were one ideal engine, we should by extension of your logic restrict ourselves to preserving or building that type alone.

    All very good up to a point and that point is the passion for steam engines and railways that people have and that draws them to this interest. If we were to build ten new examples of the same utilitarian engine (perhaps a new design) or go about preserving only examples of a an ideal type based on some optimal formula for utility then I doubt we could garner the broad interest that we have now. That interest would be more narrowly established and consequently the entire movement would be significantly smaller. In the end, people are ultimately drawn to that which excites them. As people are drawn to a given project their interest may in time develop and extend to other projects but the conduit is the diversity of projects that exist, as messy and chaotic as it seemingly is. The health of the movement is dependent on the base of support, donors and volunteers being as broad as possible. Without naming examples, there are projects that simply wouldn't interest me. Not because I don't believe they have merit but because I'm simply not passionate about it. I wish I could get excited about every project that comes along but I can't. I'm human. It therefore doesn't follow that if the projects I am interested in and contribute to were not to exist, I'd necessarily contribute to those I'm not interested in or excited about.

    And by your own criteria, surely a Brighton Atlantic is eminently more suitable than a Terrier for the loads that the Bluebell needs to haul beyond being the engine that the Bluebell's members wanted to build? As to the suitability of larger driving wheels (say 6'6" to 7'), which I think you're alluding to when referring to express types, I think you massively overstate this when pertaining to running speeds. And even if it were so, what do you exactly mean by suitability in this regard? What's the worse that's going to happen for the Bluebell in running an Atlantic? Are you concerned about the fuel costs, about damage to the permanent way, about the fact that the engine won't ever run at top-speed (nothing stopping them getting mainline certification or running on the GCR if that's a concern) or that it doesn't meet some hypothetical optimum?

    Surely the optimum is that which brings the members joy -(the thing they're passionate about and can rally around) and which attracts the visitors (an operational Atlantic no less, which incidentally is my favourite wheel arrangement) and also brings them joy. None of this is exactly quantifiable beyond the number of visitors through the gates and the members retained. I doubt that you can adequately quantify 'suitability' from your perceived idea of what is most practical but I think that when you consider suitability you need to also think about the interest and passion a given project garners.
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Current Bluebell membership has just gone past the 11,000 mark (up from below 10,000 only about four or five years ago), so I guess we are doing something right :) I suspect the diversity of projects and opportunities has something to do with it.

    Tom
     
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