Bressingham/ELR/NRM Spin-off Discussion from 6100 Thread

I wandered if it ever happened at Bressingham back when they were both lived there and were both in LMS livery

 

Ah, I feel another livery debate coming on!

 

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It hasn't.

 

It did at Bressingham.

 

Evidence
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/david..._prefs_photos_IS_1_AND_mt_IS_all_AND_w_IS_all

 

I STAND CORRECTED

 

Did any of these Bressingham engines ever visit other railways while they were steamed there? I'd have thought the Duchess and Royal Scot especially would have been quite sought after, or were they only operationally fit for the demo line trundle?

 

6233 did go to the ELR, although out of ticket at the time. A dim view was taken of that railway's renaming her 6246 City of Manchester for a while, which rather spoilt the chances of any other engines going anywhere else.

 

I knew of her going to Buckley Wells for a bit, but I never knew she was renamed there.

 

Wasn't aware it caused a problem. Do tell.

 

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From memory, it was in connection with Manchester's bid to host the Olympic or Commonwealth games, some such triviality, anyway. No mention of the intention to rename the loco was made prior to the hire agreement, or even after she arrived at Bury but prior the happening, to Alan Bloom. He probably would have vetoed it, which might explain the omission. Anyway, he wasn't at all pleased about it.

 

Mr Bloom was so upset he left 6233 with us for nearly a year afterwards as I recall and even entertained the idea of selling the loco to ELR. As it was the finance could not be found.
Can't be certain but I think David Ward was party to the promotional job too. Maybe Mr Riley recollection better than mine?

 

Wasnt it only supposed to be a short term loan ie a month to start with?

 

It was a long time ago and, as I said, I was working from memory. I've now had a look at Brell Ewart and Brian Radford's book on the engine, and they say:

LOAN TO THE EAST LANCASHIRE RAILWAY.

The locomotive remained at Bressingham until 2nd August, 1993 when, in return for a payment of £4,000 pounds, it left under a four week hire agreement to be placed on static display as one of the exhibits at the East Lancashire Railway's "Steam Railway Festival." This was held every weekend between 7th & 8th and 28th & 29th August to mark the 25th anniversary of the steam finale of main line steam workings in the north west. 6233 'DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND' took pride of place among the exhibits on static display in their former B.R. five road electric train shed at Buckley Wells. The festival also featured trains worked by other visiting preserved steam locomotives, including the ex S.& D.J.R. 2-8-0 No. 13809 from the Midland Railway Centre.

Whilst there 6233 was temporarily re-named 'CITY OF MANCHESTER' and re-numbered 2000 for a local publicity stunt in connection with that city's bid to host the Olympic Games in the year 2000, which in the event failed. Further temporary changes were made to her appearance with the transformation into B.R. 46246 'CITY OF MANCHESTER' complete with front numberplate and IB shedcode and diagonal yellow cabside stripe (i.e. used by B.R. to denote "Not to work south of Crewe" following electrification) when she appeared at Bury Bolton Street station sporting a headboard 'The Caledonian' with a rake of maroon stock behind the tender. As mentioned elsewhere, these temporary changes did not have the prior approval of the Bressingham authorities, and David Ward has indicated that they would not have been approved had an approach been made.

The East Lancashire Railway Directors had it in mind to try and negotiate either the purchase or long term loan of the locomotive in order to justify die expense of returning it to working order for use on their line and possibly also on the B.R. main line. They offered £100,000 for the outright purchase, but the Bressingham Trustees were not prepared to sell, and certainly not at that price. Negotiations therefore commenced for a ten year lease plus two to three years to carry out the overhaul, and the E.L.R. commissioned a technical survey from the Intercity Fleet Engineer at the Railway Technical Centre at Derby. Locomotive Inspectors Brian Penney and Sam Foster examined the locomotive on 5th October, 1993 at the request of lan Riley, the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the E.L.R.

The report identified that, apart from normal overhaul work, essential boiler repairs would have to include cutting out and replacing wasted firebox doorplate lap joints; repair or possible removal of the distorted firebox tubeplate and also the roof stays; rolling a new smokebox; fitting new main steam pipes in the boiler and smokebox and providing a full set of new superheater elements, superheater flues and small tubes. A new ashpan would also be needed, and in addition the blue asbestos boiler lagging would have to be removed by specialists working under new tight H.S.E. regulations.

After costing the work identified, it was estimated by the E.L.R. that the expenditure on the restoration would be around £162,000 in total, for which the railway hoped to attract sponsorship. However, this did not materialise and it was not considered practicable to meet a Bressingham hire fee of £25,000 pounds out of likely revenue receipts. Accordingly 6233 was

returned by road to Bressingham on 18th July, 1994 using Alleley's transporter units, where she was put on static display once again. Although the original one month loan had thereby been extended to nearly a year as a result of the negotiations, this had suited both parties. The Bressingham Gardens had a closed season lasting from November to April and the absence of 'DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND' had avoided the need to leave her out in the open since by remaining at the E.L.R. she was able to remain under cover.

The £25,000 hiring fee was criticised by some as being excessive, but in fact such a figure merely represents no more than the interest on the capital value of such an important locomotive, together with a contribution towards the depreciation that would have occurred from ten years use. A ten-year loan would also have meant that Bressingham would not have been able to realise the capital value during this period unless they had paid a pro-rata contribution for the un-used part of the life of the ten year overhaul, which would have been greater than its actual value to Bressingham.

No mention of any controversy. Perhaps I read it in the monthly mags; at that time I was still buying the Beano, although I stopped soon afterwards due to its sensationalist coverage. Perhaps this was an example? It was twenty-two years ago, though,so perhaps I just got it wrong?

 

That's correct, for the infamous Festival of Steam August 1993. It was lent after the earlier fiasco with 70013 not being released. Turned out to be a longer stay which came close to becoming permanent.

 

I think it was Bill Harvey who was responsible for the steaming of the Bressingham fleet in the early 1970's I think they were essentialy in BR condition good enough for trundling up the demo line but I think they would have needed a bit more work for somthing more sustantial. But you'd also have to consider how many preserved lines could have been capable of operating such big engines in the early 1970's 70000 was too heavy for the SVR around the same time.

 

Was it ever on display at Baron Street during the festival? I cannot recall it being outside the electric shops, as they were known then.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingyt...qge-gZPuAq-9H7pbT-pwV7yE-pMgweE-9u56CQ-9u55dh
(not my photo)

Wasn't the inside also part of the display?