Bluebell Railway General Discussion

A bit harsh on those who have put so much effort and money into the 5 BEL project. After all, rolling stock does get altered over the years and I'm sure that the restored Brighton Belle will recreate the ambience of a more civilised age.

John

 

I think they are using the end sections of the CIG underframes with provision for buckeyes so as to conform with current regulations - the buffers will be just cosmetic. The cabs on the motor cars have also had considerable strengthening to improve 'crashworthiness'. If the converted cars were unique such reconstruction might be a concern in historical terms but three other unconverted motor cars still exist - one as a restaurant and two in VSOE 'reserve' fleet. Best of luck to the project I say.

 

The 'British Pullman' doesn't strike me as any more authentic - most if not all the Pullman cars were modified to some degree inside and out with the Brighton Belle vehicles getting new drawgear, B5 bogies etc much like the trailers for the restored 5BEL.

As an EMU the Brighton Belle will also use the vehicles in the way that made them unique, and in a much more realistic train formation to boot, and though the traction gear may date from another era IMHO it is historic and interesting in it's own right.

Chris

 

I'd rather than a 6PIG than a 0BEL.

If it puts it on the mainline, looking and doing what it is supposed to... then I'm all for it.

 

Have to say I agree. If having different under frames is what makes the difference between the project happening, or the vehicles eventually being scrapped for want of use, I'd prefer this. After all, not many people complain about the fact that most Victorian 4 wheelers running today (including all those on the Bluebell) are on non-original under frames; nor for that matter, the LBSCR Bogie 1st, which is running on a shortened LNWR under frame. Nor are there howls of protest about fitting air brakes to most mainline steam engines, even though it is visually and aurally intrusive - but it is the difference between being able to run them and not. The situation might be a bit different if you were talking about restoring 5-BEL for display in a museum, but that is not what is happening.

Weren't the original 5-BEL units known for having a somewhat, ahem, lively ride? I assume part of the logic in new under frames is to cure that propensity.

Tom

 

From the Bluebell e-Newsletter:

Double Donation Dash

Says Funding Director Roger Kelly, "The Cash for Cover Appeal has got off to a stunning start with (as of 26 Oct., 2014) £109,040 being raised in the first two weeks from 760 donations.

"There are just three weeks remaining to reach the target of £125,000 for matching funding and then move beyond that for the additional £100,000 to complete the roof over the carriages. If you have not made a donation, now is the time!

"We are all delighted at the response so far and say a big 'thank you' to everyone who has made a donation."

And also from occasional NatPres contributor Richard Salmon:

C&W Report: The Importance Covering the Coaches

Few of the coaches we're currently restoring are ones that have been previously stored on the Railway over the long term, the exception being Bulleid Composite No. 5768. That coach had been in Bluebell Railway service for 20 years and then stored beneath a tarpaulin for 15 years. A major area of work has been on the roof, where a substantial area had rotted away completely due to water ingress and which was unable to dry out under the tarpaulin.

With the completion of several existing projects over the next couple of years, the focus of the C&W Department is expected to shift away from pre-grouping non-corridor vehicles--we now have a good number available for service and the Southern Railway Maunsell and Bulleid stock has been neglected in recent years. We have a dozen Maunsell coaches, but only three in service. Only three of our nine Bulleid coaches are in service.

Overhead cover for Southern Railway stock will prolong the working lives of those carriages currently in service. For carriages awaiting overhaul, cover is essential if we are to build up complete operational rakes of each type. Without cover we will be treading water and never make progress.

For instance, in spite of having a volunteer team working exclusively on Bulleids for nearly two decades, we have dropped from a peak of six (in the later 1980s and early 1990s) to three operational examples. Those restored in the 1970s have succumbed to the ravages of the British climate; rain has rotted out window frames and corrosion between body and underframe has led to "rising floor syndrome".

To return to the overhaul of Bulleid No. 5768, the structural timber and steel cladding of all seven passenger compartments is now complete, with the last area being the south end. Here the last corner pillar requiring replacement is being made, and the floor is almost ready to go down in the toilet, after which the last internal partitions can go back in. Work on fitting out the compartments is ongoing, starting with the ceilings.

By Richard Salmon, BRPS Trustee
& C&W Volunteer

 

Very pleased to see that the Maunsell & Bulleid stock are to be given a higher priority. I think the non-corridor coaches are great and the best stock to put behind the three SECR-liveried locos, but with two of the current working fleet painted in SR olive green and with 541 and 928 also due to appear in pre-war Southern livery, it would be good for them to have the opportunity of hauling a set of carriages from the same period. Perhaps some representatives from those responsible for carriage procurement on the national network should be invited when a full set of Maunsell stock is in service so they can see what the inside of a decent carriage looks like. OK, today's carriages are more crash resistant and run at much higher speeds but they are like cattle trucks inside. It may sound odd for a railway enthusiast to say this, but I really don't enjoy travelling by scheduled train on the national network as the coach interiors are so unwelcoming, full of plastic, poorly upholstered and just generally horrible. As far as carriage interiors are concerned, it has been downhill since the 1930s.

 

Hello,
As promised £20.00 donation with Gift Aid added towards the Undercover appeal.
Will try and keep this as a monthly donation over the next 12 months.

An appeal I can appreciate!


Must make a effort to enjoy the BRy soon!


Nick

 

Thanks Nick - much appreciated!

I've just checked on https://www.justgiving.com/cash-for-cover/ and the appeal currently stands at just over £116k, which is a fabulous effort. If we can get to the initial £125k target (which will be matched to make £250k) then the next target is to raise a further £100k so the full roof can be finished.

Tom

 

541 will, for a limited period, be 30541.

 

That's news to me and somewhat of a surprise as the MLS have so far stuck fairly rigidly to Maunsell-era SR livery for its working locos.

This raises an interesting point. Perhaps Tom can enlighten us. If the Q is to run as 30541, to be authentic it will need to have the wide-diameter Lemaitre chimney re-fitted. I've just checked good old "Bluebell Steam in Retrospect" and from the pictures of the Q, it looks like it received the Lemaitre modifications before BR was created and kept them until withdrawal. Will they therefore be reinstated if the Q is to run for a while as 30541?

 

Not as far as I know. I think (I'm not very close to the decision-making process!) that, because in any event the loco will be black anyway, there is an opportunity to run it in BR livery at fairly minimal expense, which I assume there is some likelihood could be defrayed by photo charter income etc. Obviously, it is simpler to start in BR livery and then subsequently sign-write the "Southern" on the tender than the other way round.

With regard the chimney: the current chimney I believe comes from a BR Std 4, but is close-ish to the original Maunsell pattern. I'll have to look up the relevant notes tonight!

Tom

 

Photo Charters with it next Spring using a set entirely of Bulleid coaches and a seperate set of Blood and Custard mark 1's , and more in the Autumn depending on demand.

 

I was told that the Lemaitre modifications were ordered to be removed by a previous shedmaster, as he thought that the locomotive didnt make enough of a "chuff chuff" noise for his liking! It is not believed that the parts were kept.

 

It worked then! A colleague who was once a regular on the footplate in the 80s and 90s says it's the loudest loco on the railway. I'm looking forward to deciding for myself! Also nice that she will be turned out in BR livery for a little while. It's good to ring the changes.

 

Doing a bit of reading ... The Lemaître exhaust was fitted in December 1946 and remained to the end of the loco's working life on BR. So to be strictly accurate, it should have a Bulleid chimney for any BR incarnation. The last of the Qs to be so fitted were 543, 545 and 549 in April 1949; I assume that probably took place at the same time as the first repaint and renumbering into BR livery, so I suspect a BR livery but Maunsell chimneyed Q probably never occurred.

As for the restoration, "541 restored" offers the following:

"In order that the locomotive could be restored to as near original as possible, a decision was taken by the directors of the Maunsell Locomotive Society to substitute the large Bulleid chimney with a spare Standard 4 type. This looks very similar to the Maunsell design and enabled the original style lettering and numerals to be authentically applied. This did mean however that a new design of blast pipe assembly had to be made which was fitted after the replacement of the superheater elements, main steam pipes and smokebox half-sides in January 1983."

So nothing directly about an ex-Shedmaster; nor any clue as to whether the original components still survive or not. I rather suspect not.

Tom

 

I'm even more surprised about this. I wouldn't have thought that a photo charter using a loco running in an inauthentic condition would attract much interest. I'm not aware if any other members of the class had the Lemaitre blastpipe removed in BR days apart from 30549, which had a rather ugly stovepipe chimney installed. The Wikipedia entry for the class says that some were modified with a BR 4 type chimney, but I confess that I've never seen a picture of one in that condition. Mind you, rather like the Stanier 2-6-0s, I believe the Qs had a reputation for being rather camera-shy, so while you can't always take Wikipedia as gospel it is possible that it did happen.

I guess if the restoration team want to give it an authentic BR-era appearance wihtout rejigging the blastpipe yet again, a small cylindrical section of an old dustbin flared out at the top and fixed around the chimney somehow would probably do the job!

 

See above - 541 has a BR Std 4 chimney!

The Lemaître exhausts and Bulleid chimneys were fitted to the entire class between June 1946 and April 1949. 549 was then modified, as you say, with a BR Std 4 blast pipe and a stovepipe chimney in August 1955. That combination was a marked improvement on steaming and coal consumption, at which point various others were similarly modified, but with BR Std 4 chimneys as well, which were rather more elegant. Those that got this second modification were 30530/6/8/43/5/7. So BR livery and a BR Std 4 chimney will be accurate for the charter, if the loco is also renumbered ...

Tom

 

I have never seen many photos. There is one picture of the class no 530 on a railtour the 'Midhurst Belle' tender first in Michael Welch's Decline of Southern Steam. I expect that they have been rarely photographed will been greater appeal from a Photo Charter point of view. There have been far greater inaccuries than a chimney on some charters ! Since Tom has pointed out that a renumbering will make it authentic, I expect that is what will happen.