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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Steve1015

    Steve1015 Member

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    It was not said in an offensive way......if you want read it as offensive then thats up to you.....
     
  2. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I use the terms kettles and I love steam, and hate diesels!...
     
  3. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Or being fitted with vertical boilers by the 'steam only' fundamentalists?
     
  4. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Probably for much the same reason that steam supporters on this very forum like to use the word 'box'.
     
  5. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    There's room for both! If I ever get enough space to build a model railway, it will be based on around 1965 in the Westcountry to include Ivatt2-6-2Ts, pannier tanks and bubble cars, plus a D63xx and a Warship, dream dream.

    John
     
  6. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    What a pain! I'm due to come down to Sussex tomorrow, and had arranged my trip especially in the hope that 45231 might be working this week. Thwarted for a second time in my desire to go all the way to EG behind it. Still, there's a day to go, and perhaps something might fail today (besides the DMMU). Here's to hoping!
     
  7. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Or the term "parafin can"
     
  8. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Oddly enough I have collected just that stocklist with much the same idea in mind ... :)
     
  9. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    My six year old Grandson call"s Diesel Locomotives smokey joe"s, seem"s very apt.
     
  10. Steve1015

    Steve1015 Member

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    The phrase "kettle" is used by a wide variety of persons.....including many who are " mixed traction"
     
  11. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Yes, it's no big deal.
     
  12. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

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    Update on Haywards Heath from Bluebell News:

    Bluebell Railway on Track to Come to Haywards Heath

    (From the Mid Sussex Times) Plans are on track for steam trains to roll regularly into Haywards Heath railway station for the first time since the 1960s--although not for 10 years or so.

    The Bluebell Railway, which a year ago extended its preserved steam service from Sheffield Park in East Sussex through to East Grinstead, has now set its sights on Haywards Heath.

    Land has been set aside for the Bluebell Railway to build a station in the town, said Chris White, the Railway's Infrastructure Director, speaking to the Mid Sussex Times.

    Mr. White, who has volunteered with the preservation organisation since 1975, said, "What we have negotiated with the developers of the station site, where there is a new Waitrose going, is an agreement with them, Network Rail and the Local Authority, that at the point at which we can run trains to Haywards Heath, there is a plot of land allocated for us to build a station which sits between the Network Rail station and the new Waitrose."

    Cllr Norman Webster, cabinet member for planning said, "As a council we would love to see the Bluebell Railway service extend to Haywards Heath, and we have ensured that a piece of land is safeguarded for a platform by making it a condition of the planning permission granted for the Haywards Heath station redevelopment."

    However, Mr. White added that while they view the project as a "very desirable long term preservation and commercial opportunity", they are yet to work out the costs of the project.

    He said, "We are putting together the bones of a project to extend the Railway from Horsted Keynes to Ardingly, and once we've got to Ardingly, the plan is then to negotiate running rights with Network rail through to Haywards Heath."

    This section of track is still in use commercially by a daily freight train carrying stone.

    Once the railway reaches Haywards Heath, the effects are likely to be far-reaching. Last March, East Grinstead became the northern terminus of Bluebell's operation, and the town promotions manager Simon Kerr told the Middy it "certainly put us on the national tourist map."

    Mr Kerr said, "The economic spin off is reflected by increased tourist spend in our shops and cafes here, and this has been confirmed by retailers who have been surprised by the number of visitors who have come into town while visiting the Bluebell Railway."

    The number of additional visitors to the town who have arrived by train is estimated to be in excess of 60,000 in 2013.

    Mr Kerr added, "Although it's still not quite a year since the line opened, the extension has won the hearts of all our locals, and I'm sure it will go on to increase our visitor flow in the coming season and beyond.

    "Should the Western spur from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath be re-connected, I'm sure that it would bring yet more visitors who will go on to enjoy an even bigger 'Bluebell Experience'--and better yet, residents of Haywards Heath can come and visit us by train too!"
    I am not sure if there is anything really new in this but it does raise the profile of the possible extension.


     
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  13. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    Really excellent news. As with the Northern Extension it will take a while, but it's good to know that when we eventually get round to it that we at least have the paperwork done.
     
  14. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    cracking news, any large obstacles, say like, oh I don't know, a large rubbish heap in the way this time!? ;)
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Crossing New Road (where Sherriff Mill viaduct used to stand) - for which we have bridge spans. After that it is "easy" as far as the outskirts of the Ardingly station site, where you could make an end-on connection with the goods branch. Going past that point is exceptionally problematic, though more in operational procedures of running adjacent (and at one point on) a 90mph electrified line, rather than specific civil engineering problems.

    Tom
     
  16. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    I would guess that rather like the arrangement with the gypsum trains at East Leake on the GCR(N) some sort of accomodation could be reached as far as Ardingly-Copyhold Junction, but after Copyhold Junction, there is some serious uncharted territory as far as heritage railway operation is concerned. There's no physical junction at the old Copyhold Junction site (i.e., by the Copyhold Farm overbridge), but the Brighton Main Line becomes four tracks in a cutting about a mile north of Haywards Heath Station and this is where the physical connection with the Ardingly branch is located. To run Bluebell trains into Haywards Heath would require either (1) running powers (2) construction of a new track or (3) track rationalisation with Network Rail cutting back to a single down line until much closer to Haywards Heath Station. All three are a bit of a long shot, although I would have thought option (3) is the least so. There's a good case for two up lines for trains going northwards from Haywards Heath, as it releases platform space at Haywards Heath station. I've been on a northbound train that has pulled slowly away from the station and been overtaken by a fast train on the four-track section before following it up towards the Ouse Valley Viaduct and London. Whether two down lines are needed north of the station (i.e, for southbound trains) is a different matter. I have not had any experience of a train due to stop at Haywards Heath station being overtaken by a fast train between the start of the four-track section and the station itself. I would have thought it unlikely. If it never happens, then maybe the down lines could be rationalised and the Bluebell be given an independent track all the way into Haywards Heath. However, just because I've never known this happening doesn't mean that it never does.

    Then suppose NR can rationalise the down lines north of Haywards Heath and my option (3) is feasible, you then have the problem of running 25mph wooden-bodied heritage stock parallel to the electrified line. It's a far more challening situation that the Spa Valley's parellel running from Birchden Junction to Eridge, as there's no third rail and the trains are not going so fast. The Cholsey & Wallingford Railway do run parallel to the GW main line approaching Cholsey station, so there's a precedent of sorts. Even though it runs adjacent to the Relief rather than the fast line, trains do run as fast as they do on the Brighton main Line, although there's no third rail issue at Cholsey.

    This is, of course, only my take. I guess the Bluebell board have considered these issues and have some idea of how they are going to reach Haywards Heath or else they would have never gone as far as to reserve a station site and become involved in such in-depth discussions. All I can say is that my least-improbable scenario would still be very challenging indeed.
     
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  17. seawright

    seawright New Member

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    Would this have any parallels with Swanage Railway and the proposed service into Wareham?
     
  18. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    This is all very true. The Ardingly line for a short distance is non electrified but as John says when the 4 track section begins the line from Ardingly becomes electrified. before another set of points for the non-electric goods line which is used by the stone trains as a run round loop.

    Option 2 John mentions would be extremely difficult. The track layout would have to be altered which would cause Southern/First Capital Connect a lot of problems as it could cut off the line into Platform 1 for a time and the space would be quite limiting between the junction and the station.

    I hope it can be pulled off as I would love to see regular steam into Haywards Heath.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    My own personal take is as follows:

    Firstly, Bluebell policy towards extensions seems to be to work with the local planning authorities to ensure that the relevant rail corridors aren't built on and are reserved for possible future use. So whenever there is development work that might preclude that aim (as in the redevelopment at Haywards Heath extension, or a few years ago some development that Hanson wished to undertake at Ardingly) then the railway tries to ensure that such development won't preclude future re-instatement. But a burst of planning activity doesn't necessarily mean re-instatement is imminent. I think that is probably why this story has sprung up out of nowhere. Even with a tailwind, extension to Ardingly is probably a decade away, and to Haywards Heath? Who knows.

    The next point is that over many years, the Bluebell has concentrated its major facilities (restaurant, shop, museum etc) at Sheffield Park. East Grinstead has no space for development, and neither will Haywards Heath. So I can't imagine that we will want anything other than EG - SP being the "mainline" and HK - Ardingly (or maybe Haywards Heath) being operated as a branch. Certainly that seems more likely than running EG - HH as a mainline and HK - SP as a branch.

    With regard actually getting in to Haywards Heath: John has outlined the problems very well, to which I would only add that, in addition, the line is electrified! That means running our services on an electrified line, not just adjacent to one. In one indicative scheme of Haywards Heath I saw, the only possible run-round loop involved using the Network Rail loop behind platform 1 (the Bluebell has always pushed for a minimum space of platform + loop at HH, but space is very tight). So we might get an independent platform, but not an independent run-round. A lot of procedural complexity when compared with, say, the situation at East Grinstead.

    The Spa Valley guys can probably give a better idea, but I seem to recall reading they had stringent conditions on what stock they could run adjacent to the Eridge line (no four wheeled vehicles, for a start) and that is only a 60mph line. I assume Network Rail wish to protect themselves against the risk of a derailment on the heritage line causing disruption to the mainline. That problem can only be worse when running adjacent to a 90mph London mainline! I certainly can't see a Terrier with a six-coach Stroudley set making it into Haywards Heath.

    I think an extension to Ardingly (probably to a new station outside the Ardingly station site) is a distinct possibility in the medium term. An end-on connection to the goods loop opens up other possibilities for incoming trains. It might in that situation also be possible to run a DMU shuttle between Haywards Heath and Ardingly, to pick up a steam train at Ardingly on weekends and festivals, and probably a DMU through to Horsted Keynes midweek. But beyond that - I just can't see a steam service all the way through to Haywards Heath - the certification alone looks massively complex relative to the gain.

    We already have a mainline connection now, and are rail-connected to London. So my own feeling is that a second connection to Haywards Heath won't be transformative in the way going to EG was. If I had to guess, I'd imagine the situation between Ardingly and Haywards Heath will be more akin to Bishops Lydeard - Taunton than it is like Grosmont - Whitby. Of course, speculation is a mugs game, as my bookmaker will confirm :) I might be massively underestimating the determination and overestimating the complexity!

    All of the above is my personal view and shouldn't be taken as the official view in any way.

    Tom
     
  20. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    That would make more sense although didn't Roy Watts say a few years ago when the redevelopement plans were being brought up that the Bluebell would need a platform and a water tower on the station site so there must have been a bit of thought for steam at some stage.

    Plus from a local perspective, Haywards Heath also really doesn't have the appeal that East Grinstead does. There's a lot less to do in Haywards Heath compared to East Grinstead and getting into the town is more of a physical challenge than EG as there is a slightly steepish hill going up from the station into the town where the restaurants and bars are before going into the shops.
     

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