Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Form what I’ve been told an overhaul would be virtually building a new engine.

 

I'd hoped to carry a more detailed update on both Normandy and 541 in tomorrow's Bluebell Times, but it is just too early - a few remaining t's to be dotted and i's to be crossed first. Maybe next issue, or in the next issue of Bluebell News. What @Ben Jenden says above though about boiler, tyres and tender tank is I think broadly accurate, but maybe not everything: at the moment the full scope is being determined.

As for 488, a while ago the Atlantic group estimated about £750k for an overhaul while still retaining as much as possible of the original fabric.

Tom

 

Personally I'd much rather see 473 given a go ahead of the Adams tank, partly because it'd be a quicker job but also because I'm a big fan of the E4, and the potential to have three Brighton engines (four if you count 80151) of different classes running at some point is very alluring

 

What has brought Normandy forward? I have a vague memory it was to be overhauled a while back for Monday Shunt etc but that was before the diesels were around.

 

Tom, I think you need coffee...

 

I think it was just to see if you were taking notice.

 

In Tom's defence, I do say that unironically.

 

Would it be possible to build new, now an Adams Radial rather than overhaul 488 for that sort of money - £750,000?

Unlike the other two survivors 488 did not receive new frames in c.1920. Her frames are at least earlier and may be wrought iron rather than steel,
certainly they have been reinforced around the driving axle boxes with the extra plates cut out by drilling holes nearby to one another - presumably a sound
practical job but presumably there must have been concern about the frames before the work was done.

 

no

 

So, how much would an 'all new' 488 cost? Secondly if it was 'all new' presumably there would be significant savings in terms of subsequent overhaul costs?

 

Finger in the air is that an entirely new Adams Radial would probably be about twice that amount, depending significantly on how much was done in house and how much contract out. As for the original, I think the really significant known issue is the driving wheel sets, which are of considerable age and antiquity of construction - AIUI essentially separate bosses, spokes and rims forged together, rather than one piece castings. I think almost certainly you'd need newly cast wheel sets (and axles) whatever you did.

Possibly, but whether that would be £750k worth I don't know.

I think there was a lot of sense in doing the E, since significant parts were already to hand (notably most of a tender) and we already have lots of experience with SECR locos, and high cost small items like brakes, reverser, lubricators, injectors etc. would all be standard with other locos. By contrast, 488 would be a one of a kind for us.

I suspect though that the new build bird has flown: the current Atlantic Group have I think made it clear that they don't want to do another 10 - 15 year project that they would be unlikely to see the end of, and there seems to be more emphasis on the existing fleet - including to a larger extent using external contractors where there is a capacity advantage in doing so.

Tom

 

Is there actually a problem with the wheelsets or is it just the method of construction that gives concern? Your description is similar to that used on mineshaft headgear pulleys until the 1980’s where there was a cast centre and rim with spokes inserted into holes and secured tightly by molten lead being poured into the holes. It was actually preferred over more modern welded techniques as it was generally trouble free and only died out because of the closure of the last firm with the skill set to do it. It’s also very similar to the build of spoked wagon wheels.
Personally, I always endeavour to keep old techniques such as this as long as it is safe to do so. It’s all part of the living history that I thought we were trying to preserve.

 

Interesting what you say Tom about 488's wheels. Do you know if the T3, currently under restoration, has the same aged wheelsets or has it had replacements during its active life?

Just curious

Peter

 

My understanding is that it is less about the construction, but that there are cracks in the rims. Possibly repair techniques have moved on, but you get into chicken and egg situation that if you overhaul the loco, you'd want to get significant use out of it; and if you used it a lot, would you trust the repairs?

I don't know the answer to that. However, as anecdata - one of the significant things about the history of 488 is that it was sold fairly early (still by the LSWR) to the military, then went to the East Kent Railway, where it ended up derelict, and then was bought by the SR and put back into service to relieve pressure on the other two tanks. The end result is that there is still considerable originality in construction, because it essentially had a quarter century between the wars when very little major work was done to it. By contrast, the T3 was in full SR service up to the late 1930s, and sporadically after that, so would likely have had more attention from Eastleigh.

Ultimately I think you'd need to do a degree of archaeology - physical examination and records - to fully understand the ages of the significant components of each loco.

Tom

 

The latest issue of The Bluebell Times is now available to view for June

• A move back to the Railway sees attendance at the BRPS AGM more than double from last year – report with all the results
• Nicholas Owen renames our namesake Class 73 Electro-diesel at Sheffield Park
• The Southern Railway Coach Group takes shape – and Maunsell carriage No. 3687 is revealed in all its glory as it nears entry into service
• Overhaul of ‘Normandy’ is agreed by the board – boosted by a donation of £500 from the Horsted Keynes Carriage shop
• We enter the solar age as electricity starts to flow from the roof of the Above Workshop Facility
• More progress at Horsted Keynes on both the fabric of the station and on Thumper 1305

The Bluebell Times is published monthly on the second Friday of every month. The next issue is due out on Friday, 14 July 2023.
You can download the latest edition by clicking the button below.

https://www.bluebell-railway.com/bluebell-times/

Tom

 

Just a bump for Bluebell on Parade this weekend. There is a dedicated gala thread here : https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/bluebell-on-parade-10th-and-11th-june.1422354/ and online details here: https://www.bluebell-railway.com/bluebell-on-parade-2023/ which outline what is going on.

Interesting coaching stock allocations - looks like both the four wheelers (or three of them, in any case) and the LNWR Obo are back in traffic after several years not being used. In addition the SECR hundred seater and Brighton bogie first, four Bulleids and two Maunsells also in use. Loco power will be Nos. 65, 72, 6989, 80151 and E6040.

Also, Atlantic House will be open (amongst many other attractions - essentially it's a kind of "behind the scenes" day. See the Atlantic thread for details. https://www.national-preservation.c...-32424-beachy-head.20980/page-90#post-2817417

If anyone visits on Sunday, I'll be RF in the loco yard if you want to say hello - traffic and stress levels permitting!

Tom

 

I saw 488 at Swindon in 1973 (I think?)*. There were cracks marked up in the driving wheel rims. I've no idea as to what the repair procedure might have been.

'The Locomotive Magazine' of July 1906 has a description of the process of forging such wheels (which it describes as 'more or less obsolete'). Briefly, each W.I. spoke has an inner end of segmental form, with a partial felloe at the outer end. The spokes are assembled together and held with a band around the rim. The centre is then heated to welding temperature, as is a 'washer' of the same diameter as the centre. when hot enough the spoke section is placed under a hammer, with the 'washer' on top, and the whole pressed together. The gaps in the rim are made up with filler pieces, also fire welded into place. No description of how the latter is achieved without distorting the whole; they must have had a way. While the centre is still hot it is punched through for boring later.
So, if you have a good supply of wrought iron, a big enough hearth (or hearths), a hammer big enough to accommodate a wheel, and a certifying body willing to take it on - fill yer boots!
(* I have to wonder what the broad-gauge types thought about a proper engine designed by a stand-out engineer!)
Pat

 

I've got a copy of a commemorative book on 488 put together after that overhaul. (The dates given, incidentally, are that it left for Swindon in "late 1971" and there is a photo of it leaving the works on 25 January 1973 - so you may have seen it at Swindon in 1973, but perhaps 1972 is more likely).

Sadly there is no detailed description of what was done, only a somewhat vague price list as follows:

Strip and Examination £2,500
Mechanical repairs £9,500
Additional work £292
Boiler quotation (Crewe) £2,650
Additional work £327
Additional boiler work (Crewe) £2,310
-----------------------------------------------
£17,579 + transport - a tidy sum in the early 1970s, and one which apparently generated a degree of huffing and puffing amongst the membership about whether it represented sensible use of funds.

There's a photo of the loco in Swindon works with an unidentified "Western" diesel behind!

Tom

 

There's a photo of a Western with its number unfortunately obscured by another vehicle in the foreground, Shirley?!

 

You should be impressed I even recognised it as a Western! (and stop calling me Shirley ...)

Tom