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Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by WesternRegionHampshireman, Nov 7, 2021.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed it is - and I make a beeline for it when on my all too rare visits. But I find it revealing that the anecdote relates to the Observation car, which is highly distinctive, and not the Maunsell which is, to the untrained eye, far less so.
     
  2. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Sadly, on the majority of heritage railways they are not presented with a choice. Until that is no longer the case I don't think your observation is really of much value!
     
  3. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Well that is not really a fair comparison - you do not get this view from a Mk1, or from almost any other passenger carriage for that matter. 06-11-11 35.JPG

    That does not mean that Mk1s are not still a long way the best all round multi purpose passenger carriage built in this country, taking as it does the best features of the designs that preceed it.

    Incidently on this train the Obo also proved more popular than the two Maunsell carriages it was attached to, despite the premium price.

    Peter
     
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  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    As much value as yours in that case. The NYMR has teak stock and I've never noticed passengers eschewing a ride on a train of Mk.1s to await a trip on the teak set. I'm all for pre BR stock being used but to pretend it's what the general public crave for is nonsense IMO. Their requirements are cleanliness and comfort, something that is not dependent on the age of the stock.
     
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  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Maybe the policy has changed, but normally there is a modest supplement. In my first visits to the railway in the 1970s I recall it was something like 25p per trip. Most recently, I think it was about £1 (or maybe £2) for a round trip - if so, good vfm, given inflation both in monetary and mileage terms! 1st class passengers can ride on it without supplement.

    It hasn't been seen in traffic for the last couple of years; I think it is in need of at least some level of overhaul. Up until fairly recently, I think it had the highest mileage of any Bluebell coach, since it was a routine fixture on almost every service train. It has been in near continuous use for the best part of sixty years, with I think one substantial overhaul in that time. Worth recalling that it was only 50 years old when it came to the Bluebell, and has now been with us considerably longer than that! If we knew then what we know now (and had the money), I'm sure we would have bought both of them.

    Our carriage maintenance plan basically looks to do a complete overhaul of operational carriages every thirty years (and intermediate; and door and lock overhauls between that). That's a huge commitment.

    One of the carriages I distinctly remember from my first visits to there railway in the 1970s were the 100 seaters. I recall being captivated by the droplight windows, controlled by a leather sash. But those carriages were only about 50 years old then (mid 1970s).

    Finally worth noting that through much of October, the service set in use every day was the four Metropolitans, Birdcage brake and LBSCR bogie first, average age well over a hundred. The birdcage is a fantastic vehicle, but retyring the wheels (which will inevitably be needed at some point) is I think causing some trepidation: they are Mansell wooden-centre wheels and it is likely no-one has done that since before the war.

    Also, as a teaser:

    256250221_10226598869026642_1897989166996826001_n.jpg

    (Not my photos). The hope is to have that outshopped next year. But whether passengers like travelling in it (rather than just looking at it) is going to be an interesting question! We may have to hire out cushions ...

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I have noticed some people choose whether to travel on the teak set when planning their days, though - but not when already on the platform. As importantly, and I believe because they are visibly very different, I've seen the "wow" from people as they've passed.
     
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  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    My wife was suitably impressed when we rode in an LNER teak vehicle a couple of years ago but I doubt she would have wanted to wait for the next train if the one in the platform was a Mk.1 rake and the teaks weren't due for another hour.
     
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  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I can relate to that experience - but also a decision on whether to spend one hour or two in Goathland based on which sets were on which duties.
     
  9. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Well-Known Member

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    Which is the point I was trying to make!
    Both Mark 1's and None BR coaches should supplement each other!
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    My wife loves a mooch around Goathland but when she's done, she's done and it's the next train back no matter what the stock. Me? I'd have another pint and wait for the teaks but as she would be driving me back to our digs from Grosmont, dallying is not advised. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  11. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    Tormorgaig is not quite correct as the GCR has a Mk1 that gives a similar view.....and all the passengers in my party really loved the experience.
    DSC01093.JPG
     
  12. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And I very much doubt they were overly concerned that it was a Mk.1.
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Quite so. Shouldn't be an argument about "either or". The all have their place in the heritage movement.
     
  15. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Still not a valid comparison - I don't think even most enthusiasts would wait an hour or more for the next train unless there's something else to occupy them in the meantime. The real test would be to have a train of each type of carriage departing simultaneously from Pickering and in the same direction - which is obviously not practical! - and then see which train is fuller. It would be a complicated experiment because of the various controls needed - for example you'd have to repeat the experiment to give each train a departure from each platform, to determine whether having to cross the footbridge was a factor in their decision.

    I don't think the public crave the pre-Mk 1 coaches, but I do believe that they recognise them (particularly Gresleys, but then I do admit to bias there!) and appreciate them, and perhaps prefer them - all other things being equal
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Quite so - since neither of us can conduct the correct experiment to find out, with the appropriate controls, we'll never know for sure. I just happen to believe two things :

    1. All other things being equal, many of our customers appreciate the difference between Mk 1s and earlier stock and would choose it if offered a straight choice.

    2. As heritage railways, largely run by charitable trusts, our aim should be to offer, as far as possible, an experience that differs from the "standard".
     
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  17. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    If you did it from Grosmont towards Pickering you could call it 'the Salisbury test' perhaps…?

    Simon
     
  18. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Ok, I'll grant you that. Rather more open air than the Bluebell's Obo but it seems to be a real rarity these days as a coach where smoking is still permirtted:eek:. There is another Mk1, if you class MetCam Pullmans as such, with an open air veranda but you pay a very hefty premium to enjoy that - although AFAIK the Deltic came with no extra charge! IMG_1856.JPG

    Peter
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Regardless of type, they all need maintaining!

    I wonder - straying into "post covid thread" territory - whether railways will start to see compartment carriages with greater favour? In the past it seems - particularly on Mark 1 lines - that open carriages have found favour, I think for a combination of having higher seating capacity per carriage; and also being preferred for coach traffic. But maybe the covid experience has shown there is more of a market than was previously thought for selling tickets by the compartment, rather than by the seat. I don't expect that to mean a wholesale swing away from TSOs, even if such a swing were possible, but maybe railways will prefer rather more mixed-up sets, with at least some compartment stock; which might influence restoration and maintenance priorities. I can envisage a future operating model in which even all Mark 1 railways prefer to have at least a couple of compartment carriages in every train with the intention of selling whole compartments, pre-booked.

    As an example, the current SteamLights service on the Bluebell is a mixed Mark 1 / Bulleid service, but deliberately marshalled as an almost all side-corridor compartment set:

    BCK - CK - CK - TSO - SK - CK - Van
    21246-16012-16210-4941-25728-5768-404

    The corridors are arranged all on one side (the west of the line) with the displays all on the east, affording the best view for passengers; the sales are based around whole compartments; except in the one TSO where they are based around tables of four.

    That's obviously a special service, but it is also one that is running on 90 odd trips in the year, so a pretty major component of the entire year; the offering is based on the ability to sell by compartment rather than by seat, making it a social event for groups. (Incidentally, the capacity of the set above is 14 first class compartments; 20 third class and 16 tables of four).

    Santa also appears to be being advertised on the basis of compartments, not seats.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  20. Gareth

    Gareth New Member

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    It feels like carriage sheds are very in vogue at the moment, so with more coaches being stored undercover and hopefully the subsequent decreased wear on the Mk.1's might allow some of the larger railways to start to look at the WIBN projects as opposed to restoring Mk.1's out of necessity to cover the ones needing to be taken out of service.

    I don't think it's any coincidence that most of the premier lines have to some level some covered storage as well as operational stock that is not MK1, and i do wonder if it the case that over the coming couple of decades we might start to see some of the other newer lines (i.e Swanage and GWSR) turn their attention towards a Pre-BR rake once the effects of undercover storage begin to pay off, and the railways aren't simply "treading water" in terms of carriage restorations being out paced by stock needing restoration.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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