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Another one for the chop!

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by buseng, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. buseng

    buseng Member

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    Just got the latest SR & there is an article saying that 9F 92245 is to be butchered/chopped/sectioned to show the Barry scrapyard story for "display" at the Barry Tourist Railway.
     
  2. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Member

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    Its a shame as it is such a new and modern engine but there are plenty of them left and it really has been stripped to the bare components. There can't actually be much to chop! Is there really a chance that it would have been repaired and run again? This one has been nominated for the 'Barry display' numerous times in the past.

    To be honest I would have preferred one of those Finnish monstrosities to be sectioned to show what an engine looks like inside as if 92245 goes through this process any useable components are lost forever. At least if it was dismantled for spares there would be a an advantage to the remaining locos in the class. The cylinders from 92085 are still at Sheffield Park and I expect many more bits from that one are kicking about still.

    Waiting for the wailing and calls for its immediate restoration to mainline operation...
     
  3. campainr

    campainr New Member

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    Why does it have to be "sectioned" - I thought it was going to be kept as an example of "Barry condition" to show the achievements of the preservation movement - why is it being cut up? I wouldn't imagine restoration is a possibility at all for this loco. A new build would be easier.
     
  4. stan the man

    stan the man New Member

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    I agree, a loco left in Barry scrapyard condition and on display is without doubt a good idea, not sure about sectioning the loco though, as suggested above perhaps a Finnish loco would be better for this.

    Stan
     
  5. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie New Member

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    So because a loco is from another country it doesn't matter?

    If there are plenty of a particular class of loco around, it should not matter which is sectioned as a learning aid. Anyway, I think we have enough sectioned locos in Ellerman and Pender (it is Pender, at the MoSI?) in the UK. Useful, interesting, fascinating - it was only when I saw 35029 that I truly understood thermic syphons - but there doesn't need to be many.

    I'm with campainr on this - if it's telling the Barry story, a worthy use, why does it need to be sectioned?
     
  6. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    few remaining unrestored locos are in "barry" condition...to me that would mean more or less intact, rusty, scruffy with various Sold and Reserved graffitis..
     
  7. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Sectioning was crass vandalism back then (I mean what idiot chooses a rare surviving 19thC steam loco like No3 Pender to be hacked up - should never have been given it in the first place, but then as per usual who is related to a who which determined what happens to certain assets), but now in this day and age it is even worse than that. Computer diagrams, mock up models are more than sufficient to tell a story and if someone is too stupid to understand that then they're going to be too stupid to figure it out by looking at a loco as well. If needs be you could simply project an image onto a loco to show what it looks like inside, and you could even use animations then to make it look like it runs.

    As said before ex barry condition would be mainly intact with reserved scrawled on it. And I don't think the Finnish Locos should be candidates for it either (unless it really saves them from being scrapped, which I very much doubt either, especially if they are in as good condition as has been suggested). Any steam loco surviving the end of steam deserves to be treated with more respect (especially if it's from the 19thC)....
     
  8. 5944

    5944 Part of the furniture

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    Is sectioning it any worse than scrapping various GWR (and an LMS) locos to make these mongrels that are appearing?
     
  9. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Got to agree with your comment,5944
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    No, though two wrongs don't necessarily make a right!

    As for the original scheme: it seems to me that it runs the risk of falling between two stools. If you want a Barry exhibit (and that is something that personally I think would be worthwhile for a museum somewhere) then present a locomotive in Barry condition. If instead you want a sectioned exhibit to show how a locomotive works (and accepting the concerns raised by Allan Thompson and others above), then section a locomotive - but it needs to be a whole one: no point having a sectioned cylinder if you don't also have pistons, valves, valve gear to show how it all works. Given that all that (and much more) is missing from 92245, the irony is that you would actually have to go through a substantial (and clearly financially unviable) restoration process to even get to a point where you could make a coherent sectioned locomotive. If you section just what remains, you may end up telling an innaccurate story, if some people walked away with the impression that not only did locos come out of Bary looking scruffy with a few major parts missing, but in addition had half their boilers and cylinders chopped away!

    So, given that it is very unlikely that this loco has a future as a "runner", and given the importance of the Barry story in the history of railway preservation, then presenting this loco in "Barry" condition makes sense, but sectioning it makes no sense at all.

    Tom
     
  11. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    I concur... Why b@stardise a loco when a newbuild probably wouldn't cost much more......

    I also agree about a sectionalisation being pointless if you can only see half the picture (though maybe MOSI could send us back the frames, con rods, wheels and ponytruck of No3, so we could rebuild it back into the form it should be. I'm sure they could probably get a cheap plastic mockup of the frames, wheels and motion to stick with the now useless boiler. Infact if they sent the whole lot back it would save some space in their museum if it does have to get smaller)....

    But sectionalisation of historic and rare objects should never be allowed to happen. FFS it's easy to make far cheaper replica's or use modern technology as an education aid (infact then you could portray sectionalised views of every loco to allow an understanding of the progression of design without having to ever touch the original) rather than faf around with rare and valuable historic objects.
     
  12. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Definitely with mods hat, gloves and low-vis removed.

    It never ceases to amaze me, a loco stands at Barry unloved for several decades, yet the minute it is suggested that it would make an interesting display being part sectioned to show the workings, there is an outcry.
    OK so if you want to save it, do something, don't just wring hands and say 'they' should preserve it. Set up a Facebook page or whatever and raise the required cash, or if you can't be that bothered then quit moaning.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    An LMS loco built by the LNER to boot.
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    So people aren't allowed an opinion now? As I see it, the complaints aren't that it's not going to be restored but that sectioning a very much incomplete loco would have little educational value. Seems that the majority opinion on here is that presenting it as a Barry wreck would be far better than selective gas axing.
     
  15. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie New Member

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    I'd be happy, even pleased to see a locomotive represent the Barry part of the heritage story. It deserves telling. 92245, a large locomotive in poor condition, with many classmates either in service or struggling to find a niche in the heritage movement due to their size, seems a logical choice. But sectioning it? Seems nonsensical for all the reasons given here.

    I'm not looking for a fight, but I respectfully disagree with others on here who are displeased with the previous sectioning of locos - I think they can be an exceptional learning aid. But we already have two in the UK (maybe more?. Why would we need another?
     
  16. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Perhaps if you get one more then you could go about repatriating the one that doesn't belong in the UK back to the place where it really belongs so it could be restored to running condition?....


    As far as a learning aid, sectioning is now obstelete given the advances in modern technology and far superior ways of promoting understanding are available now. Therefore more time should be spent undoing the damage done in the 70's and 80's rather than continue to sanction it..... And a similar effect could have been created with a plastic model. No-one would ever claim that school children are somehow educationally handicapped in the appropriate level of understanding of human anatomy by not being able to see sectioned human bodies, so why on earth do they need to see a real locomotive sectioned when they can see sectioned models, computer diagrams, projected views and pictures. They don't and to suggest they do is akin to saying you need to strip the paint off the mona lisa so that school children can see how it was made and fully appreciate it.

    Incidently the idiot who sectioned 3 got his inspiration for the crass act of vandalism from an exhibit he'd seen in The Lucerne Museum*. And there's a sectioned model of the rocket, plus I think I've seen one of the original style of boiler I've seen somewhere, so that's 3, possibly 4 already in the UK. If two is sufficient, given that there's some prebuilt as sectionalised models, then I suggest you set about repatriating 3 back to where it belongs so we can make good the damage.....


    *Correction, the sectionalised locomotive was infact in the Lucerne Museum, however I have seen other sources reporting the inspiration as being from Ulster Transport Museum, but I stand corrected by Ghost as they clearly have more wisdom than to hack about any of their locomotives.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    No, I'm not moaning. The Barry story is an exceptionally important part of our history. So I would fully support display of a locomotive, with a minimum of preventative conservation / stabilisation work, to tell that story. Given the large number of 9Fs already preserved, and the fact that even substantially complete ones (*cough 92240 cough*) are struggling to find the funds necessary to keep them running, then 92245 seems a good candidate for that role. Putting it in that role in Barry seems appropriate. But don't then confuse the issue by sectioning it, and creating something that would be neither a coherent exhibit as a sectioned loco to demonstrate how a steam loco works (at least not without so much fabrication of new parts that to all intents and purposes you may as well have restored her to running condition), nor a coherent exhibit telling the Barry story.

    Tom
     
  18. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Does seem at odds this concept - It's not a Barry Loco if it is sectioned. Surely the story could be told better by doing absolutely nothing with it and leaving it as it is. I agree with the comments above - The Barry story by an exhibit in the condition it left the scrapyard not otherwise.
     
  19. oddsocks

    oddsocks Member

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    Having read the story in SR, don't expect 92245 to be 'Tarted up', it seems the idea is to show the "Scrapping process" to tell the "Barry Story" and won't be sectioned as per Ellerman Lines. I would expect that a large part of the boiler would be removed and a fair number of the boiler tubes cut out and dumped on the ground in front of it, as per cutting up at Barry Scrapyard.
     
  20. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Begs the question what condition is the boiler in?

    If it's a runner or repairable then it's ridiculous as it could have a useful life. Has anyone bothered to do a survey on it?....
     

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