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Another Garratt to be Restored

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 61624, Dec 22, 2014.

  1. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    I should say that while I totally agree with the direction the L&BR are going in I personally would still like to see a bit of variety in Devon. That said, I don't think big locos such as NG16’s, would be of any benifit to the L&BR.

    If money, time and the facilities where available I would prefer to see a group set up to build a new SAR Manning Wardle 2-6-4T to work in Devon. There are other medium size locos which would be suitable for a line like the L&BR, such as the never built Indian ZA class which was the same thing as a ZB but it was going to be built for the 2ft gauge lines.

    Or if you want to push the boat out build a replica DHR 'C' class 4-6-2 tender locomotive.

    Another loco which I think could find a home in Devon is the Peckett 0-4-2T 'Karen' on the WHR I thing that would be an idea size loco for the L&BR. As I say, this is my ideas and has nothing to do with the L&BR Trust.

    Regards

    Colin Rainsbury
     
  2. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    3 train-sets.
     
  3. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    For the WHR, the plan has always (AFAIK) been to have five big engines. K1 is too small, 109 and 133 are dubious prospects at best, and I believe there is still apprehension at BL as to whether 134 will be suitable. Those of us working on 134 of course believe it will not only be suitable, but better :)

    So yes, I can imagine the management have an interest in another Garratt, especially if no capital outlay is involved.
     
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  4. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    As far as I'm aware there are no intentions of moving to a three train service yet - it would only make sense if the two train service could not cope with demand, and they would need to build more coaches. There's no point running a three train service with the extra fuel and maintenance costs to move the same number of passengers. New coaches are gradually being built and a more intensive service will eventually follow, but I don't think it will be for some years yet. Peter Best has always hired his engines to whichever railway was running them, and has provided his own maintenance, so to just hand the restored loco over would be quite a change for him.
     
  5. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Get out your calculator and work out the capital cost of that third train-set, it will make your eyes bleed. Also, where will the passengers come from for that extra train? I don't see saturation for the present service on the WHR coming anytime soon.

    Cheers

    Alan
     
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  6. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    They'll do it when they are ready. A third set of coaches (built to a slightly smaller loading gauge so capable of working through both lines) is definitely on the plans. As is adding extra coaches to the current sets to save borrowing FR stock. You can be sure that such things will have been properly costed and a business case made, since it concerns what we might call the commercial operation (as opposed to 'nice to haves ' like Welsh Pony)
     
  7. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Playing Devil's Advocate here, a more frequent service (especially in the summer) might serve to attract the extra custom and therefore pay for itself in the long run. Just a thought.
     
  8. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Both Boston Lodge and Dinas are very busy through the winter with maintenance, in particular on 143 and Earl of Merioneth which will be doing the lions share of the work next year.. On top of that there is work happening on Lilla, Welsh Pony, K1, Blanche, Diesel no9, carriage maintenance, and contract work such as axles for the c2. It would be April or May before staff could be committed full time to 134 and i think you're underestimating the work still required. Also just snatching it off volunteers and rushing it through is a great way to alienate people. Better to let the project continue as it is with the workshop staff assisting when available. It will be ready when it's ready.

    Personally i think both FR and WHR loco fleets are in better shape than they have been for a long time. Failures have been few and far between especially with the NGG16's which are a world away from the state they were 10 years ago.
     
  9. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Is 134 that close? AFAIK the boiler is yet to be started and there's a long way to go on the mechanical overhaul as well.
     
  10. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    134 is well on the way. Should have the wheels back in shortly. The boiler is deliberately being left until last. There have been one or two setbacks, but so far they've all been overcome. I'm not on the main gang, I'm on the Tuesday night volunteers. There is no chance of it being ready for next season, but the aim is still to get the fire lit before the end of 2015.

    Latest working party reports here:

    http://ng15-134.co.uk/Restoration/WPNews.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
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  11. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Now here's an idea that's occurred to me, just as an idle daydream you understand...

    Suppose, having recreated the original five L&B engines, the L&B decide they still need more steam power. Why not build a replica(s) of the original Vale of Rheidol Davies & Metcalfe 2-6-2Ts? My logic being that their design was very closely based on the L&B Manning Wardles, so in theory they ought to be about right for the railway in terms of power output. They would fulfil an educational role for visitors to the L&B, in that they demonstrate that it had an influence it had on other NG lines. Although they are not authentic to the L&B, personally I don't think they would look out of place - indeed, the double-lined green VoR livery would look well alongside either Southern or L&B liveried coaches. And to cap it all, there's the prospect of such a recreated engine paying a visit to Aberystwyth.

    Just a thought! ;)
     
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  12. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I am sure I am not the only person who has decided not to take the WHR train because the service frequency was too low (i.e. you have to devote a whole day of your holiday to it).
     
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  13. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Or how about a Bulleid influenced 2ft gauge loco :) I wonder what that would have looked like :)
     
  14. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Give Mr. Evans a call and persaude him that he should drop that daft "Fairatt" idea, and build something more practical...like a 2' gauge "Leader"... :p

    Seriously though, the new L&B certainly need a diesel won't they? You know, for emergencies? So, how about a 2' gauge version of Bulleid's 1Co-Co1s, or his Co-Co electric locomtive? And if they need more modern coaches to supplement the "heritage" stock, what would a 2' gauge Maunsell or Bulleid coach look like? There's all sorts of possibilities here! ;)
     
  15. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    To be honest, it's a five-and-a-half hour round trip, even if you allow yourself no time at all at your destination. So no matter how frequent the service is, realistically, it's going to take the full day for most people - especially the families who will struggle to get their children out of bed before ten. In any case, I'm sure most readers of this forum, being enthusiasts, are only too delighted to devote a whole day to the WHR!

    That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice to see a more frequent service on the WHR. I remember when the project was being debated back in the '90s, enthusiasts made an environmental case for the railway on the grounds that it could provide a real "public transport" service for the national park, and get people out of their cars. From what I've seen of the WHR I'm not sure this has actually happened to any great extent (though perhaps regular volunteers there can tell me otherwise). More frequent services would obviously make the train a more attractive option for the casual holidaymaker. But of course, the railway has to be financially viable, and I can quite see that running fewer trips, and getting as many passengers as possible to pay the full fare, is by far the most efficient business model. Some sort of public subsidy (plus a dedicated marketing programme) would surely be neccessary if the railway were to try to enter the "public transport" business.
     
  16. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Take the bus one way. It makes it much easier logistically.
     
  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, in any group or family, not every wants to spend their whole day on a train (or bus) so the WHR loses custom from those who would prefer e.g. a morning trip out of Beddgelert. So far, I haven't been able to persuade my family or friends to do a proper WHR trip. Fortunately, they will agree to a FfR trip (although only to TyB and back). But I have overhead others at both Beddgelert and Porthmadog looking at the timetable outside the station and deciding they can't afford the time. Perhaps a survey of holidaymakers would be illuminating?
    The point about 'public transport' for walkers is a good one. It could be argued that the project was given millions in public money on the basis of taking people off the roads - something its current service levels don't do.
    I do, however,.quite appreciate the economics...
    One way to boost the service would be more regular 'heritage' services over the central section (Aberglaslyn to Rhud Ddu) using Russell / Baldwin / Moel Tryfon 2020 / K1.....
     
  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Read C.C. Green's book about the V. of R., which sets out in great detail the serious mechanical deficiencies of these machines. Had the G.W.R. not found these unsatisfactory they would have contented themselves with mere cosmetic changes and things like different tube layouts rather than replace, completely, machines but twenty years old . Like the tough as tough W&LLR locomotives in fact which have plenty of original components to this day.

    Forgive me but I can never see the point in replicas of machines which are either known to have been unsatisfactory or are of the wrong size for present day use.

    Paul H
     
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  19. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    But both of those scenarios surely rely on people driving into the National Park to start their journey, and I can quite imagine the National Park authorities wouldn't be happy about that. The WHHR could be well-placed to run Porthmadog to Beddgelert and/or Rhyd Ddu "heritage" services though - and they could do it without the FfR having to build any extra coaches!
     
  20. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But isn't that part of the "offer" to spend a whole day on the line and not just make a "flying visit" ? If I elect to visit a railway it is with the intent of spending a whole day whether it be by travelling on the train or photographing the train(s) by the lineside or - hopefully - combining both activities to the benefit of the line concerned.
     

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