All aboard the Lynton & Barnstaple

It's because I want the L&B to succeed that I speak out. Doug Hill, having actually run a railway prior to joining the L&B Trust, had a clear and focussed view of what should be done. He set acheivable goals, and more importantly, refused to back irrelevant sideshows the company came up with, often on a whim. He just as happily sidelined ideas that I had, all was done with the goal of giving the L&B credibility and success. The L&B has always been prone to starting projects on a whim, and chasing "opportunities" that led to a dissipation of effort and short-term headlines for long-term loss. The L&B, as an organisation, didn't know what it wanted, or what was reasonably practicable.

The great prize for the L&B, of financial sustainability in a fraught economy, is Large Free Car Park (next to a main road) to Lynton, with a cable car to either Lynton or Lynmouth itself. The Car Park could be at Blackmoor, Woody Bay or Caffyns, though a businessman would opt for the latter as you would need less infrastructure, trains, and staff. The focus should be on getting to Lynton (or Lynmouth) first, and then, if the National Park desire it, working progressively back to wherever they deem a permanent car park must go.

Likewise, the trains would need to reflect the length of route chosen. If Caffyns-Lynton you could get away with heritage trains, but Blackmoor - Lynton would probably require Garretts, in order to run longer trains if traffic figures required it. Traffic flow would be all important, and the logistics would dictate that the further you travel from Lynton , the more trains, more staff, and more spaces you would need at Large Free Car Park. Remember, people might well wish to spend several hours in the Twin Towns, and their cars wouldn't be moving till they arrived back. Likewise, traffic flow would probably have 'rush hours' where maximum capacity would be required for anything more than Caffyns-Lynton.

Lynton (or Lynmouth) is the great prize. Without that link you would be running an enlarged Woody Bay operation, but at great cost. Blithe talk of bus links from Caffyns omit two drawbacks, why get the train in the first place (expense), and have you seen traffic on hill sections in mid-summer?
The current plan is arse-about-face, a huge expense for little return right up to the long term. Just consider this question,"why would the Joe Soap family pay perhaps £50 to travel from Blackmoor to Caffyns and back?

That's what I would fight for.

 

Genuine question this, not trying to bait, annoy or anger.

You say, Ellenbee, that in your opinion at some point the L&B, rather like the WHR, will be too large for a pure 'heritage' service, and will instead require the use of larger locomotives - such as Garratts.

You have also opposed the building of Yeo to a Manning Wardle lookalike, with all mod-cons and developments such as superheat to make it a stronger and more effective loco than its siblings of 80 years ago. You want Yeo to be, as far as possible, an exact replica. I think?

May I ask, if Yeo, built to modern spec, was capable of dealing with the services required on a lengthy rejuvenated L&B - something I gather it is hoped to do, would you still advocate the use of Garratts and the building of exact replicas, so that you have in effect two sets of rolling stock for the line a la WHR, or would you accept that a compromise that keeps the number of carriages and locos down can only be a positive thing, and that the photographs will still look right?

 

Like ellenbee I too was around at the start of things, but I suppose my involvement with Leighton Buzzard and other such NG groups knocked out any of the fundamental ideals out from me. I soon learned how a railway is run and it is mostly down to hard work, cause no one else will do it for you.

What I find funny now is that for so long I have always suggested the L&BR gather a collection of Heritage locos from where they can and run them while they build the Manning Wardles, This would not only give the group the experience to those that could and would need to know how to build a steam locomotive, but it would also attract the realist's to the project.

I do think there is a place for replicating the L&BR train set, but also I think there is a need to have a home for other just as important locomotives. The L&BR dream is an expensive one to fulfill. I am aware just how much it will cost to do, but I also think that the L&BR is unique in that it is one of only two places where large 2ft gauge steam locomotives can get a good run out.

I find this all amusing in that the next steam locomotive to come the the L&B will be a Bagnall 0-4-2T followed by 'LYN' and then possibly by 2020 we may just have our own Manning Wardle, who knows what else will appear in Devon before that.

No one in there right mind is making any predictions as to what will happen next, but I think getting to Blackmoor will be the next big thing as far as the L&B is concerned.

There is a house for sale near Blackmoor which would make an idea Volunteer hostel, if there was enough interest in it. Should anyone be remotely interested in such a scheme pm me and we can take it from there if any of you wish to do so that is.

Oh I had forgotten just how much I have given up for this railway over the course of thirty three years+

 

As a matter of interest, how do the Pufing Billy Railway's NGAs compare dimiensionally with the Manning Wardles? These engines haul heavy loads over a line every bit as arduous as the L &BR, and look to be similar sized 2-6-2Ts. If the MW design is capable of being "tweaked" to equal one of these Baldwins then I'd say look no further.

 

Some of the dimensions (L&B M-W / L&B Lyn /Victoria nA) are:

length: 22'4" / 23'6" / 32'
height: 8'11" / 8'11" / 10'10"
w/base: 17'9" / 17'7" / 21'10"
weight: 27.25 / 22 / 36 long tons
tractive effort: -- / -- / 12,170 lbf

... so the nA class are considerably larger in all respects, as well as being broader-gauge. Although these figures aren't complete, (if anyone knows the L&B tractive effort figures, please let me know) I doubt that any number of improvements to either of the L&B designs would bring them close to the performance of the nAs. Lyn, of a similar design age provenance, looks very similar in style to the nAs, but is of course a 2-4-2, rather than a 2-6-2.

 

Hi guys

It should be noted that Lyn was build at the same time as the first two Na's where being built at Baldwins

 

Surely the most obvious suggestion for securing appropriate motive power for an extended L&B is to borrow or buy Lyd from the FfR?
I know they want to run it themselves at the moment, and fair enough, but given it will be a few years at best before the line is long enough to need larger locos, by then the novelty value of Lyd on the FfR network will have somewhat worn off. Perhaps after running her for a few years FfR people will begin to hanker for Mountaineer or the Ladies to run the service trains instead of the southern interloper... So maybe E190 could head south to her 'homeland' either on loan, or L&B people could try to buy her.

 

It's only the obvious solution if the FfR actually want to sell Lyd, but given that they spent a huge amount of money and time on it - and that it's proven itself to be one of their useful locomotives this summer - I'd say that was about as likely as my euromillions numbers coming up tonight!

What about Adrian Shooter's Darjeeling B class? That looked right at home on the FfR and would presumably be powerful enough to haul trains on L&B. I don't know how often it gets put to use on his own line though.

As an aside does anybody know what the plan is re coaching stock, besides the planned heritage set? Do the phase 2 plans cover a new modern carriage set?

 

Yes, I do realise Lyd is jolly useful and the FfR want full benefit. But surely the FfR are also interested in their "own" locos and stock - Lyd is the thing of the moment, but it won't always be. I presume that a lot of people support and volunteer on the FfR because they wanted to preserve the line and its historic stock, and that must always be their top priority.
I write this as someone who thinks the FfR is the finest preserved railway in the world. But in the end, the FfR side of me likes to see the line being worked by Fairlies, Englands, and locos like the Ladies and the Alco which have now got a strong link. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one very disappointed to see them sidelined for a long time by Lyd. Of course there is a balance between efficient operation and recreating the past.
If there is a L&B to run on, surely everyone with a heart would like to see Lyd based there? I did say perhaps on loan or hire rather than necessarily permanently sold. It could be for whole or part of a season, returning to the FfR for other periods. I'm sure the FfR have many other things they would like to fund, and making money from Lyd at the L&B would be one way to do that.
Imagine if only one Fairlie had survived (or a replica) and it was based somewhere in England. Wouldn't FfR people try to secure it, rather than build a (or another) replica?
It just seems silly to try to fundraise to build a replica L&B loco - when one is in existance. And is in existance on a railway which is happily well provided with motive power.
Anyway, this is not something which needs to be resolved now, is it?

 

Lyd was build by a bunch of FR people, and most of the people who paid for her are FR people. Lyd is just the right size to run the slighly less loaded FR trains, and winter WHR services. I think that the FR giving up Lyd for a significant period of time is very unlikely.

However, the Dutchess of Sutherland running in BR Green is also very unlikely

 

Lyd is in daily use. It's outside my window as I type, about to head off to Blaenau with eight on.

View attachment 5206

 

This is turning into train spotters central. The biggest advance to extend the railway IS JUST STARTING and needs huge support and funding and already some are wanting to get more choo choos.

 

When Lyd was given to the FR by James Evans, the deal was done to ensure that she could be used in daily service much as the originals were on the L&B. At the time the L&B was not a credible option for Lyd’s home – there was no L&B at the time and, in fact, when James asked the L&B membership if anyone wanted to be involved in the Lyd Project he received no response.

Obviously – and happily - the situation has now changed.

The F&WHR now have the expertise to build a Manning Wardle 2-6-2 and all the necessary patterns are in store at the 'outstation of the Launceston Steam Railway'. Both James and Paul (Lewin) would like Lyd to be the first of several MW’s. Why not get Boston Lodge to build another MW, thus generating funds for the F&WHR and helping secure employment at the Lodge, instead of trying to borrow the existing one? The existing one, incidentally, being cheaper to run than a Fairlie or the Ladies (at present) and thus in daily demand for use on the F&WHR. It might not be what the enthusiasts consider ‘pure’ Ffestiniog – but the majority of visitors who pay the bills don’t mind what is on the front of the train, so long as it goes chuff.


As for the extension of the L&B – I will probably be pilloried for this view, but I find myself agreeing with some of the points made by Roger (ellenbee pioneer). Why stop at the middle of nowhere at Caffyns when you could ‘go for gold’ and get to the honeypot of Lynton? Not as if the road is an obstacle as the Wistlandpound/Caffyns scheme crosses under it twice already.

And to finish with a little tease – not many people know about the first proposal to rebuild part of the L&B by Messrs Bowman, Rampton and Stone. If you’re very lucky there might be a hefty tome published in the future which tells you about it.

 

As I see it, this IS resolved already:

• LYD has visited the L&B, and will again from time to time.
• The L&B don't want to buy LYD, the FR don't want to sell LYD.
• The L&B don't want a replica locomotive, they want a fleet of locomotives appropriate to history and FUTURE of the line. There are no historically genuine L&B locos still in existance - so they will have to be built.
• Both companies have worked well together on recent projects: the underframes for L&B Coaches 7 and 17 have already been delivered to the L&B and now reside under their bodies.
• The same underframe design will be used for the other heritage coaches once they are ready for use - and a very similar design incorporated into a fleet of modern-image coaches for the L&B.
• The L&B is building LYN, and will rebuild one (as can be seen from the L&B website, YEOs frames have recently been dusted off, and will shortly be repainted) or more 2-6-2s (possibly among others) based on the expertise gained through the building of LYD, and according to the need and finances of the modern railway.
• All this in the fullness of time. In the meantime however, there is the small matter of running the current operation, and working towards (and raising the money for - anybody want to help out?) obtaining the TWO and restoring the infrastructure for Phase 2...

Incidentally, just to be clear, this is NOT in any way an official L&B policy statement, I don't ever speak for them. This is just how I see things

 

Charles said:-

When Lyd was given to the FR by James Evans, the deal was done to ensure that she could be used in daily service much as the originals were on the L&B. At the time the L&B was not a credible option for Lyd’s home – there was no L&B at the time and, in fact, when James asked the L&B membership if anyone wanted to be involved in the Lyd Project he received no response.


Hi Charlie, as I recall it was not quite as simple as that, the L&BR membership at the time where not asked directly, but had to wait for it to come from James when he launched it on the FR. As I recall there was a certain amount of internal politics going on at the time which ended up with Project YEO being launched.

As I recall, James was a little bit more than upset to say the least with the L&BR Group at the time. Hopefully a lot of water has now gone under the bridge and hopefully lessons have been learned.

I know that when I finally heard about the LYD project my cheque was in the next post.

Even now I don’t think the L&BR is the place for LYD, but once the L&BR is over say five miles of running line, then that will be a different matter.



Charles said:-

The F&WHR now have the expertise to build a Manning Wardle 2-6-2 and all the necessary patterns are in store at the 'outstation of the Launceston Steam Railway'. Both James and Paul (Lewin) would like Lyd to be the first of several Manning Wardle’s. Why not get Boston Lodge to build another MW, thus generating funds for the F&WHR and helping secure employment at the Lodge, instead of trying to borrow the existing one? The existing one, incidentally, being cheaper to run than a Fairlie or the Ladies (at present) and thus in daily demand for use on the F&WHR. It might not be what the enthusiasts consider ‘pure’ Ffestiniog – but the majority of visitors who pay the bills don’t mind what is on the front of the train, so long as it goes chuff.


I think that is the long term plan, but then you still have the breakaway Manning Wardle Locomotive Co, who have long memories and it is still a very sensitive area as far as the L&BRT are concerned.

I am also aware that some people in the L&BR also have this if it was not built for the L&BR then we don’t want it attitude, I personally don’t agree with that as I feel you then become isolated from the rest of the railway heritage industry?

Also is it right that we should still call ourselves a heritage movement? I know some people don’t dig getting dirty and repairing old rolling stock etc, but is that not what this was about in the first place?

When this movement first started it, was about preserving the old steam locos and rolling stock and the railway atmosphere not so much in aspic but as a working living museum.

Sadly due to the way we lead our lives, everything has to have a commercial or legal edge to survive, which in turn then decides what does and does not get preserved.

We will always see new build loco projects on the go now and until the end of time I guess. But what about those locos which are rusting away in a foreign field waiting to be restored to working order and could do a few things for us

1 It could help us all understand how these things where build.

2 It would give the next generation the engineering tools to understand how
to build things without the use of a computer.

3 It is a challenge to restore something which has a heritage value to it which
is sometime missing from new build projects.

4 They would be unique.

The funny thing is that if an original Manning Wardle was to have survived it would have so much fuss made of it, yet something which is just as interesting in railway terms and because it was not built for a UK railway, it does not get a look in.

I can understand that since the days of when you could go and get a loco from Barry or BR for that matter the collections policy of many railways has changed, much to the detriment of the heritage railway industry as a whole I feel.

There are locomotives that this country has built for export, which are just as important as Flying Scotsman, yet we do nothing about trying to get one home because of its local heritage value or it did not run here in the UK.



Charles said:-

As for the extension of the L&B – I will probably be pilloried for this view, but I find myself agreeing with some of the points made by Roger (Ellen bee pioneer). Why stop at the middle of nowhere at Caffyns when you could ‘go for gold’ and get to the honey pot of Lynton? Not as if the road is an obstacle as the Wistlandpound/Caffyns scheme crosses under it twice already.

And to finish with a little tease – not many people know about the first proposal to rebuild part of the L&B by Messrs Bowman, Rampton and Stone. If you’re very lucky there might be a hefty tome published in the future which tells you about it.


Yes I know a bit about this previous project and what we now have as a result of it. Sometimes I wish that had happen as the L&BR purists would have been having apoplexy with what could have been running at Blackmoor right now. The down side is would the Vale or Rheidol or the Brecon Mountain Railway be with us to day?

Regards

Colin

 

Having looked at the consutlation poster bits on the the L&B site, I find the section dealing(or not) with Parracombe bank to be the biggest pile of "Tree Hugger and NIMBY" appeasing crap, giving readers the choice of 3 bridge designs and using the threat of "thousands of heavy lorry movements through the narrow North Devon lanes" to sweeten the prospect of a new bridge.

The remains of the bank is adjacent to the A39 - not a lane, so getting fill to it should be easy and tipped in a linear fashion to close the gap. The FR have recently managed to move large quantities of fill for the cob widening. Unless there is a compelling technical reason for a new bridge, why can't the bank be re-instated with an improved/enlarged culvert through its base?

 

Nah. This is the biggest pile of bat crap ever...

£650,000 bridge is built... for bats | The Sun |News

 

These may be tactics to bring serious objectors out of the woodwork and to differenciate between them, NIMBYS and the eco SWAMPY brigades..

'Know your enemy' comes to mind. LOL..

 

Maybe it will - no decisions have been made yet, and the final arrangement will be settled by agreement between the railway, local planning authorities, and major civil engineering companies involved. And readers are merely asked to express a preference, not vote!

 

Having watched all this for 20 years and listened to all the dreams, people building a railway based on winning a lottery ticket or finding a rich donor, there is not a pot of money anywhere to drive it all.

So far its come out of various peoples own pockets, and a small amount from bequeaths and a small amount from operating.Look who has funded the Great Yeldham experience and Sid. The L&B have spent nothing except money that was at the bank on capital projects.

It always will "all be alright" as long as the L&BR are paying sombody else money using somebody elses money, and that is what is happening.

The WHR are happy to forge a relationship based on earning from it,and that is very evident if you stand outside the box and watch what is happening inside the box.

There is not the funds anywhere to build the L&B or its rolling stock and spend lavishly on these external projects like locomotives, and there never has been and never will be in the amount of funds required.



When James asked the AGM I guess 15 years ago I was there,I remember the mood, his offer went on a barron field of people who had no way of funding it.

The operation had no railway and not much prospect of opening or operating one.

That does not mean I think his efforts were in vein, I think James took the only possible route he could and well done to acheive his objective.


The objective of the Association in 1995 OTA as it was then was to open something that was credible to prove to all the downers that it could be done.The objectives have little changed and the route is too short to operate such large loco's and stock even a break even condition financially.


Stop dreaming of trains and lavish expenditure to someone else for the privaledge and look at the only option which is to extends the line, and continue to use the train set the L&B has.

.