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9F Locomotives - Restrictions on Network Rail

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by A1X, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    The principal beneficiaries of gaining certification for a 9F would be LSL/IOS (92212), which has greater means than most. If it has found an insurmountable barrier, either technical or economic, then then there is no hope, one would surmise. May have chosen not to pursue it for other reasons of course.
     
  2. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    The Fowler LMS 2F 0-6-0T Dock Tanks had what was described as Cartazzi sliding axleboxes on the rearmost axle which enabled them to negotiate a 50m radius. I do not know how practical it might be for this to be scaled up for a 9F. Perhaps one of our mechanical engineer members might wish to comment.
     
  3. brit70000

    brit70000 Member

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    The previous owners of 92212 have indeed been there, done that, and met your insurmountable barrier. It was only after having gone as far as was humanly possible with their attempt to get 92212 onto the main line that they finally decided to put the loco up for sale. The current owners are well aware of the sterling efforts made in that direction by the previous owners and are equally well aware that nothing has changed with NR that could in any way indicate that a fresh attempt would meet with anything other than the same response. Therefore I suggest that any further speculation on the subject is pointless, but being a realist I don't really expect that the subject will not in fact be dug up from time to time!
     
  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Do you know if any sort of appeal / arbitration process is available for NR decisions? ORR or judicial review perhaps?
     
  5. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Here endeth the Lesson.
     
    99Z, LMS2968 and 26D_M like this.
  6. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But what were they trying to get certified? A 9F as it exists at present or a hypothetical version modified in one or other of the ways being suggested here?

    I'm still somewhat unclear about the exact scenario in which it is considered that a 9F would foul a check rail. On what radius of curve? Check rail on the inside rail as normal on tight curves or in some other place? Is the problem the lack of a flange on the wheel concerned per se, the lack of a flange on the wheel on the other side (thus allowing the wheel concerned to move too far towards the center of the track, or the width of the wheel (which I think is slightly greater than that of the other driver)? Anyway, isn't the very purpose of a check rail to be struck by a wheel in certain circumstances, to prevent the flange of the wheel on the other side from mounting its rail?
     
  7. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    The point is that by all accounts NR would seem disinclined to do any evaluation nor encourage anyone else to do so.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Allowing a bit of thread drift, The Hudswell Clarke Manchester Sip Canal tanks had/have Cartazzi axleboxes on the leading set of wheels. (The Hunslet Jazzers may also have but I'm not sure.) They also have flangeless centre driving wheels. I've still to come to terms with how a Cartazzi can work in such circumstances!
     
  9. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    NR is disinclined to evaluate its own structure gauge.
     
  10. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    Going to law is quite the wrong approach. Rigorous engineering evaluation and the presentation of sound evidence is what is needed. Of course the experiments / computer simulations might produce unsound evidence. If I might speculate (which Brit 70000 has warned against) I would suspect that it would be shown that a solution could be found to the checkrail-mounting risk but that there would be doubts about the implications for stability at speed, not a problem that the Dock Tanks had!
     
  11. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    What was meant is that if NR has stonewalled without affording a proper evaluation process, or discounting any proposals it may have received, there ought to be a mechanism for appeal so an objective scientific assessment can be made on the merits the opposing cases.
     
  12. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    The check rails in question are above the level of the running rails, so it's the running surface of the wheel (OK, the tyre) which might come into contact. You're thinking of the traditional way in which check rails work, using the backs of the flanges.

    Also, regarding the idea of fitting flanges to the centre drivers - it's not quite as easy as "simply" putting a flanged tyre on - the wheel & tyre is indeed actually wider across the tread than a standard one, so you would probably need new, narrower, centre drivers too. OK, these days making new driving wheels is <almost> 'routine', but still...
     
  13. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    I would have thought that one could get away with a standard tyre. Having the wheel centre protruding a little further surely wouldn't affect running.
     
  14. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, is the wheel of the same size as the others, but with a wider, flange-less tyre? If so, then a flanged tyre could be fitted, albeit with thin flanges.

    Cheers,

    Alan
     
  15. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Back to back dimension is the same for all the wheelsets. The extra 3/16" is on the outside of the driving wheel and the tyre.
     
  16. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info Std Tank.

    Cheers,

    Alan
     
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I'm still having trouble understanding. The running surface of the wheel normally runs on the rail head. If it runs off the edge of the rail it will drop somewhat on its spring. Therefore it will always be either at the same level as the rail head or lower. Therefore what might hit a raised check rail would be the side of the wheel. I can't see much difference between that situation and the ordinary one of a flange hitting a check rail.

    Furthermore, if the check rail is adjacent to the inner rail on a curve, as usual, the middle driver on that side of a 10-coupled loco will be nowhere near it, being somewhat displaced towards the inside of the curve.

    So I ask again, where are these check rails that can cause a problem? And how does the presence or absence of a flange make any difference?

    Edit. Not for a moment wishing to be argumentative, but just struggling to understand.
     
  18. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Many slips & crossings now have raised checkrails. I took some photos of such trackwork at Waverley a couple of years ago. Will see if I can find them.
     
  19. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK the problem relates to points and crossings where the cast components have built in raised check rails. I believe the worse case scenario occurs at diamond crossings,

    As others have said NR is not minded to investigate the issue just for a handful of steam locos
     
  20. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    You need to remember that NR is UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO FACILITATE THE OPERATION OF ROLLING STOCK THAT DOESN'T MEET CURRENT GROUP STANDARDS*. Steam locos and other stock which does not meet them MAY (not 'must' as some seem to think) be given an exemption providing it can be PROVED they do not bring additional risks onto the network. As such going to the courts is simply a waste of time and money for all parties as I can assure you NR will win.

    FACT :- Flangless wheel sets are BANNED from NR regardless of what method of propulsion is used or what sort of vehicle they are fitted to. The ban is for technical reasons and is sound even if many people have trouble understanding the fine detail behind it.

    That will not change simply so preservationists can bring a 9F back onto the national infrastructure any more than the ban on unfitted trains (i.e. ones that do not have a contentious automatic vacuum / air brake system acting on all vehicles in the train) will be changed.
     

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