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9F Locomotives - Restrictions on Network Rail

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by A1X, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. A1X

    A1X Member

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    I'd love to see the look on an NR officials face if he suggested running a tour with it out of any London terminii on a weekday morning given it'll likely be limited to something silly.
     
  2. Charles Parry

    Charles Parry New Member

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    9Fs are banned from national rail network due to the flangeless centre driving wheels, when they were allowed they were limited to 50mph.
     
  3. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    So all the stories of running in the 70s are fiction then.......
    But from that fount of most knowledge, Wiki, On one occasion, a 9F was set to haul an express passenger train, in place of the normal LNER "Pacific", from Grantham to King's Cross. An enthusiast aboard the train timed the run and noted that twice the speed exceeded 90 mph. The driver was afterwards told that he was only supposed to keep time, "not break the bloody sound barrier!"
     
  4. 46118

    46118 New Member

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    Just referring back to RalphW's post above, the 9F in question was 92184, the only loco available at Grantham to work the up Heart of Midlothian on a busy summer saturday. It so happened that the ER general Manager was on the train and after a lively run was somewhat surprised to find a 9F at the Kings Cross bufferstops rather than a pacific. An inquest was undertaken the following week, and at one point it was proposed that a speed limit be placed on steam locos equal to the diameter in inches of the driving wheels, however it was realised that this would impose limits on the pacifics of 74-80 mph, so the idea was dropped.

    The track development since BR days and 9F's on Network Rail, is a raised check rail at points and crossings, which it is feared the centre flangeless driving wheel of a 9F might strike and presumably damage itself, the rail, or both. So don't expect Mr H's 9F ( or any other) out on the main line.

    I wonder if Mr Hosking will be on the look-out for another "go anywhere" 4-6-0 to pair up with his Black 5? Ian Riley's combo seems to work well.

    46118
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  5. greenslade

    greenslade Member

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    regards the problem with 9f and the raised check rail,is this a fact or more theory,ie has it ever been tested or is it a bit like the gauging issue ?
     
  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    Hardly thepoint, is it? Network Rail is not going to run a 9F through its pointwork to see if it ends up on the floor, and have to clear up the mess it does. Moreover, even if it passes one location successfully, that is no guarantee that it will safely negotiate the next one.

    NR has a duty to ensure the safety of everyone using it and an absolute right to refuse anything which MIGHT cause a danger. That's how it is.
     
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  7. D7076

    D7076 Member

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    Perhaps they should ban all trains then,no gauging issues and fewer deaths would result.The network therefore would be safer.
     
  8. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    It was a design issue understood in service days, always limiting 9f route availability. Since then the use of high check rails has proliferated.
     
  9. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't someone try that? Dr Beechtree? Dr Beachcraft? Dr Beeching? Ahh, that was him!

    The point is that there is a conflict issue with flangeless wheels and raised check rails; suck it and see is not going to happen.
     
  10. greenslade

    greenslade Member

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    the reason I brought up the centre wheel suggestion was that when gresley was deemed out of guage at grosmont I suggested that they put the engine through at night after all the nr services were finished for the day. I think this is what they did and lo and behold it fitted.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

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    The raised checkrail/flangeless driver problem only occurs where there is a checkrail on the outside of a curve. How often does this occur, I wonder? Some bridges/viaducts? Curved turnouts? Where else?
     
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  12. Smokestack Lightning

    Smokestack Lightning New Member

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    Good question. That's what I was wondering.

    Dave
     
  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Well-Known Member

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    The problem may be that NR does not hold information in sufficient detail so applies a blanket restriction.
    One wonders if NR would be prepared to consider having a consultant paid for by an interested party carry out some specific route analysis.
     
  14. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    I think the problem was first identified in the 1980s when 1-Co-Co-1 classes 40 / 45 / 46 became derailed in Glasgow Central and subsequent investigation also noted that the flangeless driving wheel arrangement of the 9Fs generated similar problems hence the application of the ban.
     
  15. 3855

    3855 Member

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    yet there is a class 40 registered for mainline use....?
     
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  16. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

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    What about modelling the performance of 9F with all drivers flanged. The P2 locomotive trust have carried out computer modelling of the chassis of Prince of Wales to ensure it can operate on the network. The model could probably be tweaked for a 5 axle loco with a slightly longer wheelbase. The model could then be adjusted to see if additional side play or thinner flanges would allow operation. The original 9F design spec was for 6 chain radius curves - does the modern network have curves this sharp?
     
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  17. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

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    I thought the concern related to the check rails used in certain "modern" types of switches and crossings. It was certainly an issue in the early '80s with "Evening Star". I know that the Eastern Region civil engineers were concerned about it running in their area as I think there were some of these s&cs in the Leeds area at that time. John Belwood had some difficulty in persuading them to allow its operation on the basis that speed was low in the Leeds station area and anyway at that time they still used steam cranes with flangless wheels. Ploughman would probably be able to give more detail as it would be in his field of work and my memory is not so good at detail from so long ago. But it is not a problem that Network Rail have come up with out of the blue.

    Peter James
     
  18. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Member

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    Thought a load of ex Class40 bogies were used to make snow plows, or re-engineered to replace existing bogies, could these fall foul of the same points etc....
     
  19. david1984

    david1984 Well-Known Member

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    I think 40145 won't be seen in Glasgow Central for that reason, the wheelbase of a 40's bogie is still less than that of a 9F mind, might explain why 40's seem OK in most places, Fred will know more, but think Glasgow Central had some unusually tight pointwork.
     
  20. 26D_M

    26D_M Well-Known Member

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    The variable restrictions possibly imposed on 40145 imply that there is some location specific knowledge. Not a great leap to be able to model for the 9F at selected network locations then, perhaps?
    Identifying limited and particular [secondary] routes where a 9F might be useful eg S&C could be possible if someone was prepared to fund the necessary evaluation.
    All theoretical and hypothetical ..... But it would be great to see a 9F in full cry again.
     

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