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850 Lord Nelson

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Oct 25, 2007.

  1. Broomhalla

    Broomhalla New Member

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    The only thing stopping the NRM from building a new boiler for 850 is the NRM itself with it's ether lack of funding or unwillingness to have something new that's as big as the boiler. In my mind a new one should be built to replace what even to a casual observer like my self is a knackered, patched and repatched boiler. But then it is all to simple for me to say that one should be built when a new boiler now a days coasts between 100,000 to 400,000 pounds to build what is a huge chunk of funding that could be used on other engines. Don't get me wrong i like Lord Nelson but there has to be a limit to the amount of engines the NRM has running on the mainline or out and about. Next year Cromwell will be back in all it's glory and hopefully if nothing else goes wrong we should have the Flying Scotsman in the near future. Not to mention we have everyone's favourite GWR 4-4-0 City of Truro doing the rounds and Sir Lamiel now back after boiler problems.
    Add that to the already growing number of mainline engines that will be up and running next year, hopefully.
    These include the new build Tornado and the two Royal scots which should be ready next year as well as a castle and hopefully a single chimney king to join the other that is already out there, or at least will be next year. And this is not even counting the three A4's that will be on the mainline or any of the Bulleids that might make a appearance or two.
     
  2. i mean pointing the finger and saying things that may cause things to happen
     
  3. Shoddy127

    Shoddy127 Member

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    Remember Broomhalla Lord Nelson is the only Lord Nelson preserved, Im not going to comment on this as I dont want to come across with the obvious one sided view but I do hope that the money can be found for the repairs to commence and get her up and running again.

    In your post you state numerous locos returning or coming onto the mainline but the majority mentioned already have at least 2 locos preserved bar Scotsman, Truro and Sir Lamiel obviously. We'll have to see how things develope but Im keeping my fingers crossed. Any steam on the mainline currently should be appreciated whatever loco it is!
     
  4. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Whether you agree with it or not , items in the national collection are "museum pieces" and as such you would expect to see something at least approaching an "original" loco rather than something more like a replica. by original I mean comprising most of the parts it was withdrawn with.

    Would you go to stonehenge if it had been built using modern technology or the original prehistoric creation.

    Instead of bleating on about a museum policy, we as enthusisasts may have to consider the A1 lead and build replica engines of those engines in the national collection we want to see in steam.
     
  5. Timothy Hackworth Jr

    Timothy Hackworth Jr New Member

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    Thanks Martin, thought I was the only one who felt this way until you commented!
     
  6. KHARDS

    KHARDS New Member

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    there would be nothing to stop you building a boiler for when Nelson runs and putting the old boiler in storgae, and then if/when it is retired to the great hall the original boiler could be put back in the frames.....

    I personally dont think it matters to much anyway. Was LN build with this boiler? How much of the tender metal work is original? etc. It represents more worth running around the country with some unoriginal metal than it does stuffed in a dark corner of york with 100% original metal.

    In my humble opinion.

    Stonehenge is really comparable. People didn't put an extension on stonehenge in the 1930s and develop it into a school in the 1600s. It hasn't been continually modified since its creation. Thus while one has a clear original state most locos suffer from the "grandads old broom with 2 new handles and 5 new heads" syndrome.
     
  7. Shoddy127

    Shoddy127 Member

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    Have to agree with Khards here and I know this is a touchy subject in the preservation movement but Id rather see any loco running around whether it be preserved or mainline rather than stuffed and mounted in a museum. In regards to using as much original material as possible, in some cases you can and others you cant, again it boils down to seeing an engine working or gathering dust and the prevention of failures in everyway possible as in the current case with 850.... Unfortunately who made this choice all them years back has possibly made the wrong one but we all make mistakes, its how these things are dealt with thats the key.

    Modications need to be made for modern day mainline running as we all know but you either go with it or get left behind, in cases such as 850, Clan Line, Princess Elizabeth, Duke of Gloucester and Scotsman these things have to happen because whats the point of running these locos at 25mph for 5/6 miles and then running round and coming back again because it just isnt worth it in my opinion but others will see it differently obviously and I respect that. As Ive said before and I will say it again 25mph or 60/75mph..... no case in my eyes....
     
  8. malc

    malc New Member

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    What is so special about the parts that the loco was withdrawn with? Most of these will almost certainly not be the parts that the loco was built with, so I can't really see the problem with replacing worn out "original" parts with newly manufactured replacements, particularly if the replacements are exact replicas of the originals.

    Using another analogy, what about cathedrals? Would you prefer it if they were simply left to crumble away or is it right that the crumbling masonary is replaced?
     
  9. lil Bear

    lil Bear Well-Known Member

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    A Question.

    The NRM is to provide information on the history of the UK railways, and part of this includes putting locos into active service.

    Would the majority of the public know the difference if they operated with non-original parts, and would this make much difference particularly if the original components were returned to the loco once its turn in service ended?
     
  10. Timothy Hackworth Jr

    Timothy Hackworth Jr New Member

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    That is already done.
     
  11. KHARDS

    KHARDS New Member

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    How many people would notice?
    How many people would care?

    Many locos are running with major parts (boilers/wheels/tenders) that they were not construct6ed with, many classes were rebuild/modified and most have had smaller non-ferous parts replaced many times over. I think the joy of steam for the enthausiasts and the experience for families and children is from seeing a loco in action. Be it on the mainline or a preserved line, to see the engines, move. To see the motion move, hear the whistle, smell the steam. We as enthausiasts enjoying the sesnation of a loco moving and non-enthausiasts are mesmerised by this. Static engines have a much reduced value, in my opinion.

    We have engines like City of Birmingham and the Star which will be kept in their current condition, and fair enough. But these machines have been in a constant state of flux since creation and our main aim as a movement should be the OPERATION of these machines. (Although I mean this is a wider sense of the movement, not just NRM, and that they must operate under financial limitations)
     
  12. Timothy Hackworth Jr

    Timothy Hackworth Jr New Member

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    NRM do both - but they have finite resources and are publicly funded...dig deep again and things might happen. The NRM is not there as a toybox, but does accept that good interpretation includes operation. Next year there will be more NRM locos in operation thanm there have been for a very long time - enjoy it. Also go to York and see how many/few people are working on Scotsman - who also have to keep 4771, 3440, 49395 and others on the go at the same time...
     
  13. stepney60

    stepney60 New Member

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    But theres more to it than just speed. Consider accessability, a high profile engine like 4472 or even 850 running at 70mph through a station where the people on the platform get a mere glimpse of the engine they "own" as part of the National Collection, or who would love to ride behind it but can't due to costs / location / timings, or do get the chance to travel at a mere 25 but get to properly see and experience "their" engine.

    Don't get me wrong, theres ample room for both, it's just a shame some engines don't go to the heart of the preservation movement, the local heritage raiwlay.
     
  14. KHARDS

    KHARDS New Member

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    Agreed, there is no reason why both cannot be done, as compliments. The use of 4771 and 3440 where the early years of the certificate where the engine is strongest is spent mainline and then the last few years can be nursed out at the sedater pace of heritage lines, seems to make perfect sense.
     
  15. Steamage

    Steamage Member

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    Agreed - and Lord Nelson has done both. Remember that she worked her first public trains on the West Somerset Railway last autumn and then visited the ELR during the winter before spending the spring and summer working on the main line. Remember also that it was planned that 850 would be based in York for a month or two, to work trains to Scarborough and Carlisle, so would be availabe to the public in the north of the country, displayed at the NRM and working on the mainline, as well as in the south. Sadly, as we know, circumstances changed and the plan didn't come off. As Shoddy said earlier, though, some engines are less suitable for day-to-day work on preserved branch lines. I'd add that, in my view, it is quite right for NRM engines to preserve their "specialness", so should be kept for special events such as galas and main-line charters, rather than working day-in, day-out like any Black 5 or Bulleid rescued from Barry.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    850 not allowed a replacement boiler under its cladding,which could later be swapped for the original when retired.
    46229 allowed to be covered from head to toe in non original streamline casing.

    Consistency?
     
  17. Pmorgan_cym

    Pmorgan_cym New Member

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    Their is more than one Cornonation preserved, one "mothballed" in ex-works condition, one working. So theere are no worries about destroying something thats unique and original. Also the cladding is no more significant than a coat of paint. Which is the arguemetn used to justfy the restreamling, not too evryones taste (too mine something I'm looking forward to seeing), but there are other preserved examples of the class and there's nothing overly unique about DoH (Any one see cringe worthy publicity "Spped Machine Duchess of Hamiltion with Lewis HAMiltion in the cab, comng).

    THe boiler in 850 is a significant aprt of a now unique loco. Though to be honest, why it couldn't have a new one and the original stuck under a tarpaulin somewhere for those who are interested to salivate over is a mystery (never quite sure what these people who study loco boilers con rods etc, are out to learn or if theysoley exist in the mind of someone at the NRM).
     
  18. 73129

    73129 Member

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    You hit the nail on the head =D>
    Are we going to get the same trouble with 4472 when she gose back on the main line
     
  19. Sir Nigel Gresley

    Sir Nigel Gresley New Member

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    ....but you can't see the boiler; you can only see the cladding, and I bet that isn't original!

    (Admittedly, you can tell whether an A3 has an A4 boiler by the alignment of the washout plugs on the firebox side, by the position of the dome and by the combustion chamber)


    .....and what about the Bulleid mods to 850 (blastpipe/chimney and, I believe, slidebars)?

    .....or you could always solve the boiler problem this way!
     
  20. John Elliot Jnr

    John Elliot Jnr New Member

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    Erm...

    http://www.world-mysteries.com/alignmen ... ations.htm

    "From 1901 to 1964, the majority of the stone circle was restored in a series of makeovers which have left it, in the words of one archaeologist, as 'a product of the 20th century heritage industry'."
     

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