850 Lord Nelson

Kerosene Castle · Jan 18, 2008

Better call the fire brigade first, just in case.

Swan Age · Feb 1, 2008

Good to read in the Latest Steam Beano, that the problems with 850`s boiler may be not as bad as first feared.

8-10 Brass Cleaner · Feb 1, 2008

Swan Age said:

Good to read in the Latest Steam Beano, that the problems with 850`s boiler may be not as bad as first feared.
Click to expand...

Isnt that what Mr Hackworth said in this thread nearly a month ago??.

Lets hope when it is fixed that lessons have been learnt in boiler management.

John Elliot Jnr · Feb 1, 2008

8-10 Brass Cleaner said:

Lets hope when it is fixed that lessons have been learnt in boiler management.
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Was the problem caused by poor boiler management?

Swan Age · Feb 2, 2008

John Elliot Jnr said:

[quote="8-10 Brass Cleaner":2v3cf2e6]

Lets hope when it is fixed that lessons have been learnt in boiler management.
Click to expand...

Was the problem caused by poor boiler management?[/quote:2v3cf2e6]

It seems that maybe it could have been.

According to a quote from Helen Ashby of the NRM in the latest Railway Herald, once an eight-stage programme of work has been carried out. They will meet with representatives of the ERPS later this year to agree an operating and maintenance regime for the engine, to ensure that the same problem does not occur again.

Steamage · Mar 5, 2008

In a "stop press" report, the latest issue of Railway Magazine is reporting that Lord Nelson is expected to move to the Glocestershire & Warwickshire Railway in late April or early May for running in before moving to the Great Central for some high-speed running and finally making her main-line come-back on some Scarborough Spa Expresses in August, all being well.

Stories about the plans for the GCR and SSE have been around for a few weeks, but AFAIK this is the first mention that the initial running-in will be on the G&WR. That's less than an hour from home for me. Whoopee!

PhotoMatt · Mar 5, 2008

Great news Steamage, am really pleased to hear it.

Will be nice to see her at the GWSR.

rough-shunter · Mar 6, 2008

Steamage said:

In a "stop press" report, the latest issue of Railway Magazine is reporting that Lord Nelson is expected to move to the Glocestershire & Warwickshire Railway in late April or early May for running in before moving to the Great Central for some high-speed running and finally making her main-line come-back on some Scarborough Spa Expresses in August, all being well.

Stories about the plans for the GCR and SSE have been around for a few weeks, but AFAIK this is the first mention that the initial running-in will be on the G&WR. That's less than an hour from home for me. Whoopee!
Click to expand...

Im very sorry to have to say this but this is not the place to disscus why or how the problems occoured all we need to know is lessons will be lerned and whats been done has been done discussing various groups actions is slanderous and does lead to problems so please donot do it .if you had spent time money restoring a loco to say have the firebox go after a very short period of time i think you would be very unhappy even more so when you stumbled upon a forum who where pointing the finger at someone .

Maunsell man · Mar 6, 2008

Think you need to be sure of your facts before posting young man.

Q1 Within what time period must libel or slander proceedings be commenced?
Usually within one year of the date of publication of the material containing the defamatory allegations complained of. However, in exceptional circumstances the court can extend this time.

Q2 What is the difference between libel and slander?
Libel concerns the written word and material broadcast on television or radio. Slander concerns the spoken word.

Q3 Who can sue for libel or slander?
Individuals, companies, firms, charities and trade unions can all bring proceedings for libel and slander. Governmental bodies (local authorities, central government bodies) and political parties cannot - but if the allegation reflects on them, individual councillors, civil servants and politicians can all bring actions in their own name.

Q4 What must a person or company prove in a libel or slander action?
When an individual or company brings a libel or slander action, they must show:

that the words are defamatory of them;
that the words would be understood to refer to them by even one other person; and
that the words have been published to a third party.
A libel claimant does not have to prove that the words are false or to prove that he has in fact suffered any loss. Damage is presumed. A slander claimant will need to prove that the defamatory allegations caused actual damage, unless the slander is within certain categories.

Q5 When are words defamatory?
There is no set definition of 'defamatory'. A statement may be considered to be defamatory if it tends to do any one of the following:

lower the claimant in the estimation of right-thinking members of society generally;
disparage a claimant in his business, trade, office or profession;
expose the claimant to hatred, ridicule or contempt; or
cause the claimant to be shunned or avoided.
Whether or not a statement has that effect is measured against the standard of the reasonable man generally and not a limited class of people who may have different standards from the majority of members of society.

Common examples of what may be considered defamatory are allegations that suggest a person is:

Immoral
Dishonest
Corrupt
Insolvent or in financial difficulties
Incompetent
The producer of shoddy goods

Standards of morality constantly change and so what would have been immoral twenty years ago may not necessarily be so today.

Determining the meaning of words gives rise to a great degree of uncertainty in a libel action. It is not only the superficial meaning that may be defamatory but also any 'hidden' meaning which can be inferred. There are three levels of meaning to be aware of:

the 'natural and ordinary meaning', in other words the meaning on the face of the words;
inference, in other words a meaning that can be read between the lines without any specialist knowledge; and
innuendo, a meaning which can be attributed to the words by readers who have a specialist knowledge. The onus is on the claimant to show the facts giving rise to the innuendo and that these facts are known to the readers. For example, to say that a person eats meat is not defamatory on its face; if, however, some readers know that the person professes to be a committed vegetarian, the statement may be considered defamatory, suggesting he is hypocritical or dishonest.
The words must be put in their full context, including headings and captions to any photographs. For the purpose of deciding whether words are defamatory, the intention of the author is irrelevant. All that matters is the impression which the words give to readers.

It is important to bear in mind that a person can sue for the repetition of a defamatory statement made by somebody else. However if it is made absolutely clear, when the words are read as a whole, that there is no truth in a rumour then this may be sufficient to remove the defamatory 'sting'. Be aware however that it is often considered that there is 'no smoke without fire' and it is possible that the publication even of rumour can be defamatory.

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Yes. Clearly if someone is named they are identifiable to readers. However, even if the claimant is not named he may still be identifiable to some readers. It is sufficient that he is reasonably identifiable to even one person with whom he is acquainted. For instance, people with whom an individual works may know to whom the allegation is referring from its context.

If a defamatory allegation is made of a large, indeterminate group, no one individual may be able to show that the words would be understood to refer to him. However, if the group is determinate and comprises only a small number of people, it may be possible for every member of that group to sue.

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Making a defamatory allegation, whether orally or in writing, even to one individual other than the claimant himself is sufficient to give rise to a claim (although the court has the power to stop a case proceeding in limited publication cases if it would be disproportionate for them to proceed to trial).

Any communication to anyone other than the person actually defamed is, in law, capable of constituting publication. A draft manuscript sent by an author to his or her editor is a publication.

A claimant can take action against any or all of those involved in the process of publication, including the author who wrote the book, the editor responsible for the content of the book and the company which publishes it.

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Any person, company or other legal body involved in publishing the defamatory material. This includes the author, any editor and any publishing company. Sometimes, distributors of defamatory material can also be sued.

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There are three main defences available to a defendant in a libel action; namely, justification, fair comment and privilege.

Justification
The defence of justification, or truth, is a complete defence to a libel action. The onus is on the defendant to prove that the allegations are true.
Whilst the defendant does not, necessarily, have to prove the truth of each and every fact, he does have to prove the truth of the substance of the allegation, the defamatory 'sting'.

Fair comment
Expressions of opinion, based upon true facts, made in good faith and without malice on a matter of public interest may be protected. Note the distinction between fact and opinion.
The facts must be proved to be true and the opinion, the subject of the fair comment defence, must be honest. Therefore the facts upon which the comment is based must be correct. It does not matter if the view expressed is extreme, so long as it is an honestly held view and not malicious. For this purpose, 'malice' may be established if it can be proven that the commentator did not genuinely hold the view he expressed.

Privilege
The law recognises that there are circumstances in which it is in the public interest to permit greater freedom of speech. Publication on a matter which is privileged is protected from a libel action either by absolute privilege, which is a complete bar to libel actions, or qualified privilege, which protects the statement so long as it was published without malice. In the case of qualified privilege, malice may consist in either:

a. awareness of or recklessness as to the untruth of the statement (as above);

b. a dominant improper motive in making a statement believed to be true; or

c. misuse on the occasion for which privilege exists.
3a Absolute privilege
Examples of situations covered by absolute privilege include:

fair, accurate and contemporaneous reports of proceedings in public before UK courts, the European Court of Justice, European Court of Human Rights and certain international tribunals;

statements made in Parliament and official reports of parliamentary proceedings (includes select committee proceedings but not statements made by MPs outside Parliament);

This defence gives complete protection to fair, accurate and contemporaneous court reports. It cannot be defeated by proof of malice. Generally a newspaper or magazine article is treated as being contemporaneous if it is published as soon as possible after the statements are made. This will normally be in the next available issue following the proceedings.

3b Qualified Privilege
Qualified privilege exists "for the common convenience and welfare of society because the law accepts that there are occasions when persons should be at liberty to express themselves freely even when in doing so a third party is defamed."

Qualified privilege attaches to three main groups of publications:

Reports of proceedings listed in Schedule 1 Defamation Act 1996
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Part I covers fair and accurate reports of public proceedings in legislatures, courts, government-appointed public inquiries, international organisations or international conferences anywhere in the world. The report does not have to be contemporaneous. Part I also covers the fair and accurate publication of documents authorised by those bodies, as well as any documents open to public inspection.

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notices issued for the information of the public by the legislatures of member States, the European Parliament, European Commission, international organisations or international conferences;

documents made available by courts in member States or the European Court of Justice;

public proceedings of local authorities, justices of the peace and other bodies set up by statute in the UK or other member States;

proceedings of lawful public meetings in member States held for the furtherance or discussion of a matter of public concern;

proceedings at general meetings of public companies formed in the UK or other member States, and certain documents circulated to the members of such companies; and

findings or decisions of a broad range of business, sporting, cultural and charitable associations in the UK or other member States.

Reports of parliamentary and judicial proceedings
Fair and accurate reports of parliamentary and judicial proceedings are protected by qualified privilege at common law, whether published contemporaneously or not. However, the common law has become less relevant in this area since the Defamation Act 1996 came into force, as it confers qualified privilege on a wide range of judicial proceedings (see above).

Defamatory statements made under a social, moral or legal duty to a person who has a corresponding interest in receiving them.
This category of qualified privilege has proved difficult for the courts to define specifically. Whether a social or moral duty exists depends on the circumstances of the case, and the courts have not limited the interests to which the defence applies, except to state that the interest must be a legitimate common interest and not a matter of mere gossip or curiosity. Publications between an employer and employees are likely to be covered by this privilege as are publications for the purposes of disciplinary or other employer/employee proceedings and between a trade union and its members.

In recent years the law has developed, under this category of qualified privilege, a defence which is sometimes termed that of "responsible journalism on a matter of public interest". The law recognises (Reynolds v Times Newspapers) that there are occasions when the public interest requires that publication to the world at large should be privileged. In determining whether the public at large has a right to know the published information, the court should be concerned to assess whether the information is of sufficient value to the public that, in the public interest, it should be protected by privilege in the absence of malice.

In making the assessment, Lord Nicholls in his Judgment in Reynolds set out ten "illustrative circumstances" which required to be considered:

"1. The seriousness of the allegation. The more serious the charge, the more the public is misinformed and the individual harmed, if the allegation is not true.

2. The nature of the information, and the extent to which the subject-matter is a matter of public concern.

3. The source of the information. Some informants have no direct knowledge of the events. Some have their own axes to grind, or are being paid for their stories.

4. The steps taken to verify the information.

5. The status of the information. The allegation may already have been the subject of an investigation which commands respect.

6. The urgency of the matter. News is often a perishable commodity.

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8. Whether the book/article contained the gist of the claimant's side of the story.

9. The tone of the book/article. A report can raise queries or call for an investigation. It need not adopt allegations as statements of fact.

10. The circumstances of the publication, including the timing."

Q10 What is the difference between libel/slander and malicious falsehood?
In malicious falsehood the claimant must prove:

the words are false;
the words were published maliciously; and,
special damage has flowed from their publication unless the publication falls within certain criteria.
Note: the words need not be defamatory. They must be false. Also note: the claimant carries the burden of proving all three elements which makes the claim more difficult than a libel claim.

Q11 Does normal libel law apply to emails and publications on the internet?
Yes.

Q12 If a claimant is successful in a claim what might be recovered?
Compensation for damage caused by the defamatory publication and to vindicate reputation, an apology often in agreed terms and an undertaking not to repeat the defamatory allegations. The damages can be from one penny to upwards of £250,000 depending on the seriousness of the allegations and the way those being sued behave. In addition, any actual loss caused by the defamatory publication can be claimed.

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Substantial proceedings are very, very expensive. However, we may be able to assist using our Conditional Fee Agreement (no win, no fee) scheme and also by obtaining After the Event Insurance.

The content of these Questions and Answers do not constitute legal or professional advice and should not be relied on as such. Specific advice should be sought about your specific circumstances. If you have a specific legal question you should address it to one of our lawyers.
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Sidmouth · Mar 6, 2008

rough-shunter said:

Steamage said:

In a "stop press" report, the latest issue of Railway Magazine is reporting that Lord Nelson is expected to move to the Glocestershire & Warwickshire Railway in late April or early May for running in before moving to the Great Central for some high-speed running and finally making her main-line come-back on some Scarborough Spa Expresses in August, all being well.

Stories about the plans for the GCR and SSE have been around for a few weeks, but AFAIK this is the first mention that the initial running-in will be on the G&WR. That's less than an hour from home for me. Whoopee!
Click to expand...

Im very sorry to have to say this but this is not the place to disscus why or how the problems occoured all we need to know is lessons will be lerned and whats been done has been done discussing various groups actions is slanderous and does lead to problems so please donot do it .if you had spent time money restoring a loco to say have the firebox go after a very short period of time i think you would be very unhappy even more so when you stumbled upon a forum who where pointing the finger at someone .
Click to expand...

Why quote Steam Age , since you seem to imply he is responsible for idscussing the wrong thing even though his post is about a visit to the GWSR

chrishallam · Mar 6, 2008

Im curious about this one.

What can be offered at the G&WR that can't be offered at the GCR?

Seeing as she'll be going to the GCR anyway for 60 mph testing, and its probably a less demanding line for the loco, why double the transport costs to send her down to Toddington as well?

twr12 · Mar 6, 2008

I expect the G&WR made NRM an offer they couldn't refuse...
Oh yes, a roof.
Becuase that is the NRMs primary concern for their steam locomotives, a roof.

david1984 · Mar 6, 2008

chrishallam said:

Im curious about this one.

What can be offered at the G&WR that can't be offered at the GCR?

Seeing as she'll be going to the GCR anyway for 60 mph testing, and its probably a less demanding line for the loco, why double the transport costs to send her down to Toddington as well?
Click to expand...

It does seem a strange one, i can only assume he NRM wants it to travel so a broader selection of the population have the chance to see it.

Jamie C. Steel · Mar 6, 2008

chrishallam said:

Im curious about this one.

What can be offered at the G&WR that can't be offered at the GCR?

Seeing as she'll be going to the GCR anyway for 60 mph testing, and its probably a less demanding line for the loco, why double the transport costs to send her down to Toddington as well?
Click to expand...

I know the reasoning but it would probably not be very wise to put it out in the public domain.

bgammers · Mar 7, 2008

who cares about the politics, who is to blame, blah blah blah!

Its coming back! and I for one will be pleased to see it at the GWSR. \/

Shoddy127 · Mar 8, 2008

Love it how some people can comment on things they no nothing about lol.......

Just a small piese of info, its heading to the GWR because the line is flat with no severe gradients for "gentle" running in.

KentYeti · Mar 8, 2008

Really great to read that this lovely loco is due back in service this year.

Whilst I did manage runs behind D1 4-4-0s and one behind an Arthur, I never got behind a Nelson in steam days. And my "return to UK steam" in summer 2007 after a near 40 year lay off meant I only photted it twice, and never booked to ride behind it.

So I for one will be heading to the GWR, (I believe that is near Cheltenham), to put that omission right.

For the sakes of all those who have worked on it and spent money on it I do hope they have sorted out what caused the problems. And that they can look forward to some years of running the 4 cylinder loco out on the main line.

SteveG · Mar 10, 2008

KentYeti said:

Really great to read that this lovely loco is due back in service this year.

So I for one will be heading to the GWR, (I believe that is near Cheltenham), to put that omission right.
Click to expand...

We'll be pleased to see you at the GWR. We run between Cheltenham Racecourse and Toddington (for now) have a look at http://www.gwsr.com/html/finding_us.html for how to get to us.

Steve

KentYeti · Mar 10, 2008

SteveG said:

KentYeti said:

Really great to read that this lovely loco is due back in service this year.

So I for one will be heading to the GWR, (I believe that is near Cheltenham), to put that omission right.
Click to expand...

We'll be pleased to see you at the GWR. We run between Cheltenham Racecourse and Toddington (for now) have a look at http://www.gwsr.com/html/finding_us.html for how to get to us.

Steve
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Many thanks Steve. I am slightly ahead of you as yesterday I was researching photo spots on a combination of GOOGLE Earth and OS online! As well as image searches to see how others had got on. Do I have to bring my own green passenger coaches with me? ;-)

Nice to see a line with some parts East-West running, and not nearly all North-South as with the Bluebell and the Mid Hants.

Just a question of which way round the loco will be. And no doubt I'll get that here when the loco arrives.

And maybe there will be a Southern Weekend when 34007 passes through?

Sidmouth · Mar 10, 2008

KentYeti said:

SteveG said:

KentYeti said:

Really great to read that this lovely loco is due back in service this year.

So I for one will be heading to the GWR, (I believe that is near Cheltenham), to put that omission right.
Click to expand...

We'll be pleased to see you at the GWR. We run between Cheltenham Racecourse and Toddington (for now) have a look at http://www.gwsr.com/html/finding_us.html for how to get to us.

Steve
Click to expand...

Many thanks Steve. I am slightly ahead of you as yesterday I was researching photo spots on a combination of GOOGLE Earth and OS online! As well as image searches to see how others had got on. Do I have to bring my own green passenger coaches with me? ;-)

Nice to see a line with some parts East-West running, and not nearly all North-South as with the Bluebell and the Mid Hants.

Just a question of which way round the loco will be. And no doubt I'll get that here when the loco arrives.

And maybe there will be a Southern Weekend when 34007 passes through?
Click to expand...

Is the Mid Hants not east west in its orientation ?

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850 Lord Nelson

Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

Swan Age Member

8-10 Brass Cleaner Member

John Elliot Jnr Well-Known Member

Swan Age Member

Steamage Part of the furniture

PhotoMatt Well-Known Member

rough-shunter Guest

Maunsell man Well-Known Member

Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

chrishallam Member

twr12 Well-Known Member

david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

Jamie C. Steel Member

bgammers New Member

Shoddy127 Well-Known Member

KentYeti Guest

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Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

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