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7802 at WSR

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gladiator 5076, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The mods won’t necessarily see such a request though if they aren’t reading this thread. Best way is to “report” the first post about 7802 and ask for it and the subsequent posts to be moved to the relevant thread in steam traction.

    Tom
     
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  2. marshall5

    marshall5 Member

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    Looking at a 'worst case' scenario and 7802 needing a replacement cylinder casting how similar is the cylinder design to a 68xx? Wasn't 6880 the first to use poly-patterns for its cylinders so presumably the CAD files still exist. Just a thought.
    Ray.
     
  3. lil Bear

    lil Bear Member

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    68XX have a larger steam chest, plus other differences. So whilst 6880 has shown the way with poly patterns, their actual CAD files wont be too much use.

    4930 has just had new cylinders also I think (as has 3850). So plenty of experience with these, just the need to find the funding for the repairs. Not sure if Insurance will pay out for component failure.
     
  4. D1039

    D1039 Member

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    Patrick
     
  5. Hirn

    Hirn New Member

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    Why on earth?

    Not speculative to state this is beyond a new cylinder cover? It will at least mean getting the cylinder casting out which as the cylinder bores are the reference point form which you aline
    the entire chassis has considerable further effects on the scale of whats needed. Not an instant job.
     
  6. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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    How different are the cylinders between a Manor and a Hall? Didcot has two spare ones that came from 4943 Maindy Hall.
     
  7. marshall5

    marshall5 Member

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    Completely different, hence my question re the differences between Manor and Grange cylinders.
    Ray.
     
  8. martin1656

    martin1656 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Are their any spare Manor Cylinders around any workshops from a scraped member of the class? if not then do any patterns exist for the cylinder , I'm of course assuming this type of cylinder was not used on any other GW class. and there is a spare set. that would fit of course, any replacement will need to undergo an full metal particle test for cracks and defects to ensure no future problems.
     
  9. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is the Manor cylinders were basically the same as the Granges, but sleeved down. Whether there were also differences in the steam chest I have no idea. Presumably the saddle would be different.

    I note from a couple of sources that the Granges were originally built with 9" diameter valves and changed to 10" later. GA drawings 107421 for the first lot of Manors (1937) shows 9" valves as does 106700 (1936) for the first Granges, but Ernest Nutty's book states 10" valves for both. Durrant says that 9" valves (except on Kings) were being replaced by 10" when he was in the works around 1950 as locomotives were shopped, but he doesn't say whether it was new cylinder castings or whether they could bore out the castings for larger liners. I would *guess* by this date the complete cylinder/extension frame assy. was swapped out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  10. Chuffington

    Chuffington New Member

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    The loco restorations I have been involved with have all completed full ndt testing of the running gear on overhaul I would imagine it is done as matter of course on most restorations these days.
     
  11. Robin

    Robin Member

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    Fabricating new components like cylinders would presumably be a lengthy process. It's not spare as such, but the EMF's other loco is mid-overhaul and pretty much dismantled at the moment. How feasible would it be to 'borrow' the necessary bits to get 7802 working again and put any new components on 7812 in due course?
     
  12. MikeParkin65

    MikeParkin65 Member Friend

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    Given the boiler ticket is ticking away would a potential solution be to look at some component exchanges with the either the EMF's already under overhaul 7812 (7802 boiler to speed the laters return?) or borrow the cylinder from the SVR's own 7819?
     
  13. phil hancock

    phil hancock New Member

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    Another option to keep some money coming into the EMF coffers might be to loan/hire the in ticket boiler from 7802 to the WSR to go on their out of ticket Manor so long as that is in a condition where it could still be used. Either for the duration of the boiler ticket or the completion of cylinder replacement on 7802 which ever comes first.
    On the fracture in the taper that caused this sorry state it could have been a hidden flaw inside the steel bar that was used or it might even have been started from a dent formed on the surface of the rod taper during rough handling of the piston and rod where its been allowed to hit the corner of a rail head, it could be going back to Swindon days even. The bruising having been dressed off with a file at the time but over the years the stress raiser of the dent remaining has caused the fracture to start and then propogate. Close up pics I would find very interesting.
    Hopefully EMF will make the findings public to stop any blaming where its not needed.
     
  14. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not quite as simple as one might hope. My understanding is that in Swindon days typically both cylinders and the extension frame assembly would be exchanged when cylinders were replaced. So that's the complete frond ent assembly. Then the chances of both valves and pistons being bored to the same size is minimal, so you've got to include valves and pistons as well as the front end assembly, presumably slide bars, crossheads, all that. Then chances are whichever connecting rods you use one or other end would need the bearings machined to size, and I don't doubt there are a lot of other things as well.

    As for transferring the boiler, I bet that too, with getting all the bits and pieces to fit, inspections and everything else is a much bigger deal than it was at Swindon works when they did it every day with no shortage of labour or equipment. I wonder whether there's enough value in the boiler ticket to justify all the other expense for a shorter period of operation. Depends, I imagine, on whether there's a critical locomotive shortage or not - and whether everything else is ready to be used at short notice and only the boiler is limiting putting a locomotive back in service.
     
  15. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure you aren't reading too much into a very out of focus and highly shadowed image? I wouldn't be brave enough to read so much into this photograph.

    7802-detail.jpg
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think enthusiasts tend to set too much store by the concept that the boiler ticket is "ticking away".

    The critical number is that you get sufficient days and / or miles between overhauls. So you might target 100 days per year of an average 60 mile duty cycle meaning you are aiming for 1000 days and 60,000 miles to recover the money of the last overhaul. If you have a year out mid-ticket, it is highly likely you can still hit those numbers; for example, if you had to temporarily withdraw the loco in year five, you might still hit those numbers by doing 125 days per year for the last four years. Given a general shortage of motive power across the industry, it is highly likely that the host railway would be able to offer the extra days. (Don't forget - somewhere there are going to be one or more locos worked much harder this year to cover the gap caused by 7802; those locos are thereby likely to need mechanical work sooner, which gives scope for extra days in operation for a "refreshed" 7802 in a year or two's time while those other locos have much needed TLC). Meanwhile, provided the boiler is correctly laid up, it is not actually deteriorating for however long it takes repairs to be effected, unlike a boiler in regular use.

    Ironically, while there is no "right" time for a significant failure, early in the boiler ticket is probably preferable to late. If this happened in year 1, you would have plenty of time to recover the lost days. Whereas sometimes in year eight or nine, even a fairly minor mechanical failure essentially stops the loco with no opportunity to earn the last 100 days or so that was being planned.

    Certainly swapping cylinders from another loco seems like a world of pain to me: as things stand, you need to do repairs to one loco, with all the complex alignment issues etc. If you swap cylinders from 7819, essentially you end up doing the same work to two different locos, i.e. double the work, for what I suspect is an illusory gain in keeping a boiler in service.

    (As an aside, I think loco policy would be more robust on many railways if you assumed a working life of about 7 years rather than 10 and did the business models accordingly; and took anything beyond that as a bonus. It would take recognition that the loco component of per mile operating costs are probably more than people assume).

    Tom
     
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  17. std tank

    std tank Member

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    The locomotive owners have put out a statement which confirms that the piston rod fractured.
     
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  18. D1039

    D1039 Member

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    For info only 7802 returned to traffic around November 2015, coinciding with the 'Manor 50' weekend celebrating the end of steam on the Cambrian network.

    Patrick
     
  19. marshall5

    marshall5 Member

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    Afraid not on all counts. All 9 preserved Manors have been restored and none have been dismantled for spares although that was what 7802 was originally purchased for. I believe the cylinder block castings are unique to the Manors and so far no-one has had to make a pattern. There is at least one each of 28xx, 49xx and 51xx cylinder blocks spare but, of course, no use for a Manor. A pattern exists for a 29xx and a 55xx but, again, no use for a 78xx. I'm sure the EMF will be looking at all the options including repair of the existing casting but none will be cheap or easy.
    Ray.
     
  20. jnc

    jnc Member

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    I wonder if it's possible to get all the Manor owners together for joint funding and ownership of a pattern or CAD (for a polystyrene pattern)? It's sort of like insurance; your engine may need it someday.
    It will be interesting to see if a repair will even be possible (although if enough money is applied, I guess anything's possible).

    Noel
     

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