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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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    I'm not sure, no, @5944. But my point was a narrow one - a message that the 'hybrid' 47xx was temporary and that this was an expedient way to getting it up and running but that they would still build the No 7 - saving N years and £Rk - is very different to what has been said, and the bogie borrowing from Cogan Hall to 6880 seems not to have attracted negative comment, that's all.
     
  2. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    You and I both well understand and agree re the shortage of vols and funds. I do then find it strange that folk are suggesting that 4709 + 40xx is more feasible than simply restoring 7027. With 4709 & 40xx being likely one ticket wonders (if they ever get that far) contributing towards them is well less than attractive. Yes 7027 is a big job and somebody here rightly asked why folk might contribute to 7027 instead of 5080. There could be two answers to that, firstly 7027 would be a newcomer as an operational loco and secondly, unless things change access to 5080 would be limited to at best a couple of 2 day open days per year. A heritage line based 7027 would have something of a USP, accepting that none of this is an easy task.
     
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  3. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    There is a very logical solution to all this:
    Seeing as the GWS management are not apparently interested in accuracy, authenticity, or historical integrity and seeing as most GWR locomotives were coupled to Collett 4000 gallon tenders at one time or another..... If the GWS were to gut one of their 4000 gallon tenders, and fit it with about 1200 DeWalt Li-ion batteries, and the traction motors from one bogie of a Class 37, they would have an 800hp tender-drive unit that they could stick behind any of their locos. Enough power to swizz up and down the demonstration line for an afternoon and run a soundtraxx sound unit with a big amp and speaker fitted into the smokebox.
    They wouldn't have to worry about a boiler for 4709, or having skilled loco crew, or coal, or the shortage of volunteers. Or bother with keeping any of their locos in ticket. As the logic seems to be "no-one can see much difference" and "a blind man would be glad to see it" this could answer all their woes.
     
  4. Roger Thompson

    Roger Thompson Member

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    Since he sold Thornbury Castle, JJP has had a significant change in his personal circumstances; he sold his share of Somerset Passenger Solutions, the bus company he set up jointly with First to run staff buses to the new power station being constructed at Hinkley Point, to First, for several £millions. He probably now has the cash available to complete Thornbury Castle from his own resources, should he wish to do so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  5. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    Are you in a position to give us an idea of how much has been done/remains to be done on 7027, without breaking any confidences or offending anyone?
     
  6. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

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    I believe that the 4709 group were expressing interest in 7027 much earlier (See P2 on this thread!) but then JJP bought it. Then he received a good offer from Mr Gregory (2019/20) and it went to the GCR with the finance in place for a 3-4 year return to steam. Obviously Covid had extended this but steaming in 2023/4 was still a possibility. However it seems a change of mind/falling out with GCR has resulted again in a stalled restoration/sale.
    Again though, after that hard work, many people on the GCR - both paid and volunteer, who must feel really bitter about this turn of events.

    Kylchap
    I can only go by what I have seen in the shed over the past two years and I have posted pictures on this thread. Obviously there are still many parts needed but the timescale for completion was around 2 years from now...subject to finance being available.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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  7. D7076

    D7076 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps he could afford to pay off the mortgage charge against 9466 then .
     
  8. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    I've trawled over older postings on this thread and I get a general feel that 7027 was pretty much complete albeit in dismantled form. There is a suggestion that some rods / forgings may have been lost to scrap whilst at Weston?

    On the other hand, post #663 is a wishlist posted on facebook looking for needed parts and that list doesn't look overly significant to me. I believe most that was being looked for was donated?

    Pressure Gauges and safety valve bonnet. (see #670)

    I see that there are some who are happy to believe that 7027 is just a painted chassis but I would say that GCR Loughborough have achieved much more than this, especially as the locomotive only arrived as the pandemic started. There are many HRs and Locos under overhaul / restoration that have been delayed more than we can say for 7027.

    For those looking for original Connecting Rods from 7027, I think you'll find one at least used on 7029 https://www.flickr.com/photos/68647...2mwTJaX-7SYB8T-2jc7Cax-2mwPwpB-PsSC9j-2jc7C1u (not my image)
     
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  9. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Were not Tyseley thinking of doing same years back, hence why there is a spare No.1 (recently offered for sale IIRC) knocking about at Tyseley.

    Isn't there some overlap between the 4709 group and the previous management of the Patriot project, another area of interest?

    Was the work being done at GCR by volunteers or was it a paid contract job? As an aside I note that the 4709 group seem to be suggesting that Mr Gregory has some serious health issues (if so hope he gets better soon) whilst the CEO of the GWS has been stating he has actually passed away, does any one know the truth or otherwise of this as if its not true its all rather unsavoury.

    Perhaps he could, but as I suspect none of us know the terms of said mortgage its difficult to make any comment as to whether he may wish to at this stage?

    I think it just suits the narrative for those warming the gas axe to be honest.
     
  10. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    I believe (don't quote me on it) it was being worked on by paid staff and volunteers. The staff in the GCR engineering department are all enthusiasts so I'm sure they're just as gutted as those giving their time for free.

    Couldn't agree more. On FaceAche there seems to be a very small contingent who are seemingly rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the restoration project being written off for parts, who are (whether intentionally or not) completely ignorant of the fact the Castle isn't a forgotten rusting hulk.


    Has a group within the scene ever alienated itself from the preservation community to this degree by digging the proverbial hole with not only one but two terrible announcements before?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  11. Mike S

    Mike S New Member

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    Far from it, no narrative, just experience and knowledge. I'm currently just a matter of feet away from where much of the heavy parts from 7027 reside. Those who think 7027 is virtually a complete kit of parts are I'm afraid very wide of the mark. Regardless of the recent excellent progress do not be fooled in to thinking it is a quick easy task, as I said before, regardless of Castle or Star it is a big undertaking.
     
  12. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    I don't think anyone genuinely believes it's not a big task. If there's a will, big things can be done. The A1 team have proved anything is possible if there's a desire to see something happen. 5043 was looking pretty damn rough before Tyseley touched that...

    https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/24/72/4247224_3f2eadad.jpg
     
  13. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    Are you able to confirm what parts (maybe some of the more expensive?) that are missing? I'm under no illusions to the job in hand but in 2020 the GCR were quoting a three year timeline to completion (probably an ambitious target) so I wouldn't agree that 7027 is just another scrap-line hulk given that it left the scrap man with many parts to Tyseley exactly fifty years ago.
     
  14. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I do suspect there is also a possibly understandable hangover from the loss of the 8F for the County project, I cannot be bothered to look but wonder whether a venn diagram of those up in arms about that and now completely sanguine (and in some cases pretty gleeful) about scrapping the castle would show some overlap?
     
  15. Mike S

    Mike S New Member

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    All of the coupling rods, inside connecting rods Inc all associated brasses, cotters, straps etc (I understand that the GC have since obtained two raw forgings for the inside connecting rods which is helpful) virtually all of the brake gear, majority of the valve gear, valves, pistons, crossheads the list goes on and on. All absolutely possible of course, but requires a lot of £, dedication and time. Maybe underestimation has formed part of the many ups and downs for this loco over the years? It would be a shame for that to happen again.

    As per an earlier post I at one point had a little involvement with 7027 to give back up to the above, I should have known better than to bother posting here!
     
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  16. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clarifying Mike. 7027 likely left Woodhams in 1972 with many of the items now required but will have been a source of parts for 7029, 5080 and 5043 over past decades.
     
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  17. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    2 years from now! Sorry but having seen 7027 recently I very much doubt that!
    A coat of paint can be very decieving to the untrained eye.
     
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  18. Mike S

    Mike S New Member

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    Absolutely.
     
  19. MAPLE CHRIS

    MAPLE CHRIS Member

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    i do wonder why there are so many GWR replicas being built as to joe public they all look the same and do not have that wow factor by the time the county and 47xx are finished if they are most enthusiasts who can remember them will no longer be here

    Lady of Legend does not seem to attract a huge amount of interest among the public as say 34027 in purple has and so far has only run at the Severn Valley railway perhaps its too costly to hire to attract other railways

    Beachy Head and 82045 are the only replicas that wiil attract me in the future
     
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  20. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    You have given us a good sense of perspective regarding what is required to return 7027 to steam and thank you for so doing. Nonetheless, those of us who were dismayed at the news of 7027's intended fate have read nothing, I suspect to make us change our minds. Indeed, to the contrary. To summarise some additional concerns:-

    • It appears that Jonathan Jones-Pratt, the previous owner, sold 7027 on with a firm understanding that the new owner would restore it. If he has now decided he doesn't want to do this, it is surely going against the spirit of the sale agreement then to sell it on to a group that isn't intending to restore it, even if nothing legal was included in the relevant document(s).
    • There appears to be an indication that there was some interest from an unspecified individual/group in the loco, presumably with the intention of restoring it. If this is the case, the decision to sell it to the 4709 group is nothing short of bizarre.
    • The statements from one senior figure within the GWS and the 4709 group have, to put it politely, been somewhat confusing, leading some to doubt whether we are being given an accurate report as to exactly who is involved in this controversial purchase.
    • The news that the 4709 group was planning to use the frames from 7027 as the basis of a new-build Star has clearly come as a complete surprise to most posters on this thread. Given the cost involved and the likely duration of such a project, dare I suggest that the announcement was made in what has proved a largely futile attempt to assuage the considerable anger which this sale has generated?
    The bottom line is that even some less controversial dismemberments of ex-Barry locos have still attracted criticism. 4942 was bought right form the start with the express purpose of being converted into a Saint, 7927 was in dreadful condition and there don't seem to have been too many complaints about it being the basis of the 6880 and 1014 projects, 2861 and 4115 have also gone their way without too many howls of anguish, but the scrapping of 48518 was not well received and I suspect I was not the only person to be dismayed that 5227 has gone the same way, given that Didcot doesn't have a 2-8-0 tank in its collection. However, none of these engines were, to my knowledge, ever subjects of a plan to restore them to working order. For all the work that is obviously needed to complete the restoration of 7027, until the recent announcement of its sale to the 4709 group, it was intended to be a runner.Even if Tyseley decided to switch to 5080 and neither Pete Waterman nor Jonathan Jones-Pratt felt able to complete the job, every previous sale was made on the basis that one day 7027 was going to steam again.

    As others have pointed out, not just the 4709 group but the GWS as a whole has brought itself into disrepute over this business. At very least, they should hit the "pause" button and ascertain for certain whether or not there is someone or some group willing to restore 7027 (And has the funds to do so) and if there is, to back off from their proposed course of action.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022

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