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70013

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by BillyReopening, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Member

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    It would seem to be the case that 70013 is to be overhauled on the GCR - and to Main Line standard, as per the latest "Strategy" document from the NRM. This is good news for all concerned. The burning question being, will there be the main line connection before the restoration is finished?
     
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  2. Davo

    Davo Member

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    Well theres always down to Quorn and on the low loader job. Brilliant news N.R.M. have allowed the overhaul of 70013 at Loughborough especially for main line running again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2019
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You must be reading a different strategy document. What it actually says is:

    "The future operation of Flying Scotsman beyond 2023 will be considered in more detail closer to that date. Currently, only two other locomotives, Oliver Cromwell and Green Arrow, could be realistically considered for main line operations."
    and then

    "With the largest redevelopment of the site at York since the museum opened in 1975, no further main line steam locomotive restorations should be contemplated until at least 2021 when Great Hall is expected to reopen."
    and then

    "70013: Proposal to return to operation currently being considered"
    (My emphasis).

    Which is considerably more equivocal than "It would seem to be the case that 70013 is to be overhauled on the GCR - and to Main Line standard, as per the latest "Strategy" document from the NRM."

    (Source: https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/...19/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf)

    Tom



     
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  4. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    On that point "Currently, only two other locomotives, Oliver Cromwell and Green Arrow, could be realistically considered for main line operations." From a purely mechanical point of view, really? I know there are some locos in dreadful condition which would require enormous amounts of work to steam, but Green Arrow is hardly a simple re-tube job. I'm no expert in the condition of many locos held by he NRM, but surely if Green Arrow can be "realistically considered" that provides scope that some others in the collection could, in theory, be too?
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    There's a separate thread on the report, but in general, they exclude locos for which there are already others of the same type running (so no Black 5, no Caerphillly Castle, no Battle of Britain; presumably no Duchess); those for which there might be gauging or other technical concerns (so no King; no 9F). That doesn't leave much as suitable for use on the mainline - apart from those mentioned, you might perhaps consider "Sir Lamiel" (but it's a class 5, not a class 7 / 8) or "Lord Nelson", but there isn't much else suitable for mainline operation.

    Tom
     
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  6. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Ah, I forgot the mainline caveat! Which presumably also discounts City of Truro too.
     
  7. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Given a once-over ...... OK and a new crank axle ...... there's always the Wainwright D. ;)
     
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  8. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    and gauging is likely to restrict it's use.
     
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  9. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    So wouldn't that tend to rule out Olly Crom as well, given that there's "Britannia" already out there?
     
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  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If I wanted to see it back in Steam I would quietly ignore that argument
     
  11. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    I think the relevant point is that over recent years the management of the Railway Museum has changed significantly. It is much less independent of the Science Museum Group than it once was and the policies of the group have moved the NRM significantly towards conservation and academic study allied to increasing revenue through increased "footfall". Operating mainline locomotives is falling down the priority list and will disappear before too long. The future of mainline steam is elsewhere.
     
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect there is a bit of post-hoc justification, given that 70013 is already fitted with modern safety systems.

    If you look at the locos in the NRM that are 5P or above, you have:

    - Caerphilly Castle
    - Flying Scotsman
    - Sir Lamiel
    - Horwich Crab
    - Lord Nelson
    - King George V
    - Cheltenham
    - Black 5
    - Green Arrow
    - Mallard
    - Duchess of Hamilton
    - Sir Winston Churchill
    - Ellerman Lines
    - Oliver Cromwell

    The NRM have ruled out KGV, Caerphilly Castle and the Black 5 in their paper. The Crab is probably too small for the mainline except for specialist routes, which doesn't help if the aim is for the loco to be widely seen; likewise probably Cheltenham as a mainline candidate. The BoB is of a type widely represented in preservation; Ellerman Lines is sectioned. Mallard is probably too important to have as a draw in the museum, and in any case there are others of the same type preserved.

    That leaves Green Arrow, Flying Scotsman, Oliver Cromwell (already referenced by the NRM), Sir Lamiel, Lord Nelson and Duchess of Hamilton. Despite there being others of the same type in preservation, I'd be angling for the Duchess - which has run (relatively) recently in preservation and represents a unique form, if not a unique type. It is a slightly surprising omission from the list given that the wording was "could be realistically considered for mainline running".

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  13. keith6233

    keith6233 Member

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    When did they fit air brakes to 70013 i know 70000 as air brakes not so sure about 70013.
     
  14. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    70013 is vacuum braked only
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Sorry - that’s my mistake. I imagined I read it :) “fully fitted with modern safety systems” is the actual phrase used. Post edited.

    Tom
     
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    To be 100% accurate the loco and tender are steam braked and there was a little known incident involving 70012 John of Gaunt while working the 19.30 Liverpool Street - Norwich in 1957 where the crew probably wished all was on vacuum. While passing Ilford the pin of the coupling between engine and tender fractured and fell out. As the engine seperated from the tender the train quickly came to a stand as the vacuum pipe was severed but left the engine with no means of braking. It was finally brought to a stand by the driver winding it into reverse and applying steam. The extended footplate, rather than the conventional fallplate, may well have saved the fireman from falling through the gap as engine and tender parted company. Safety chains were fitted following this incident.
     
  17. peckett

    peckett Member

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    A incident like you describe happened between Chinley and Manchester Central with a Britannia ,I forget the loco number and the exact location. This happened a few years later ,about 1959/60 on a ST Pancras to Manchester express.when several Britannia's were transferred to the Midland. It was well reported in the press with photo's .Presumably the safety chains you describe were non effective.
     
  18. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    All driven by budget I imagine, as the NRM presumably has to pick up the costs of overhaul and maintenance (offset by any net revenue), in the absence of a sugar daddy. 6229 is interesting. Although it is not to my taste, the blingy, pointy, look probably appeals to the general public, and a bit like Scotsman, it potentially has its own market, as it would make good advertising copy, and importantly might be less likely to cannibalise the work of other locos in whoever's stable.
     
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  19. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    I'd say the NRM report has been worded very carefully to avoid that argument...




    4.1. MAIN LINE OPERATIONS: STEAM LOCOMOTIVES

    The museum’s strength lies in the unique locomotives. It is not viable to operate anything which the private sector already covers and for which there are multiple examples – such as the majority of our diesel fleet, or a Black 5 or Castle Class steam locomotive.

    Practicalities of routes and ability to travel nationwide have also been factored into this policy – the Great Western locomotive King George V, for example, is too tall and heavy for main line running whilst Evening Star has a long rigid wheelbase that significantly restricts its capacity for main line operations.



    "multiple" examples allows for 70013 to be included, as there is only another single Britannia in 70000. I'd agree with Tom's list above, removing 777 as she proved difficult to gauge on a number of routes. It's a shame 850 is no longer seen as viable, as whilst I'm happy the MHR are permitted to restore her she is capable of so much more than 5x coaches at 25mph...
     
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  20. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    70014 19th June 1958.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019

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