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6201 Princess Elizabeth

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Linesider, Aug 29, 2008.

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  1. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    radical thought, but maybe if the people behind 6201 arent interested in another mainline stint, they could turn it into the Birmingham Think Tank in a swap for City of Birmingham.. I'm sure that will find a few supporters all round.!
     
  2. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I could be accused of being blinkered as my main involvement is on the heritage line scene, but I think the biggest problems may face the biggest mainline locos as they are probably too large to mix regular heritage line work with mainline tours. 6201 is probably one of the very small number of locos to which this applies, and I know the society has expressed the opionion that they "don't do branchlines" in the past. Even A4s quite happily clock up the miles on heritage lines - 60007 is about to start its regular summer programme on the NYMR - but the LMS Pacifics are just that bit bigger. 71000 has done some successful heritage line work and it does seem the ability to earn regular if less spectacular income off the mainline (and extra income stream in effect, as noted above) is part of a successful mix.

    The other big current question is the cost/benefit of the extent of current overhauls. On the Moors, we completing a major rebuild on 45428's boiler based upon skilled engineer's opinion that money spent now will save costs in 10, 20 or even 30 years time - but that will only truly be proved at those times in the future. I am no engineer and the experience and expertise of those forming the policy is such that I would expect it to be the case, but I can quite understand with a bigger loco that is costing over £ 1/2 million to overhaul anyway that spending an extra £100,000 or more to gain a future benefit is a big decision and potential risk.

    The added problem for the largest locos is that not only is regular heritage line work probably out of the question (and there is a limit to how many locos can be accommodated on the few lines able to offer such work), but the regular mainline work may also not be a possibility - certainly, The Jacobite isn't and the Scarborough Spa has gauging issues ruling out some larger locos.

    If the custodians of 6201 find it difficult to commit to what happens next, it is not surprising - the considerations I presume they have to look at will face some other owners in the future - and lovers of mainline steam may find they don't particularly like the conclusions some of them reach.
     
  3. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Is your impression based on known facts?
     
  4. gresleyman

    gresleyman Member

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    Theres a great deal of difference between not having enough people and being selective about who works for you on support crew.
     
  5. saltydog

    saltydog Part of the furniture

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    Too true. It's easy enough to get the numbers of people who want to be support crew, but making sure they have the right qualities is a different matter.
    Putting someone through a PTS course doesn't automatically make them safe to be out on the railway, equally it doesn't make them a team player either.
     
  6. Impala

    Impala Member

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    That overview pretty much summarises the situation over the past 30 years plus.

    Unfortunately the management are just not plugged in to the realities of operating main line steam. Some of them think it's just a hobby and they can cherry pick what they want to do and when they want to do it. Instead of which one has to be fully committed to every job that comes up, and get on with it. Not only that but motivate other people to do the same. Instead of which they take an autocratic approach, and even worse, mess people around at a whim for the sake of it. The result is a bad balance sheet and multitudes of self inflicted problems that we can all see. 6201 has the potential to be in the top three participants in the main line scene. Instead of which it's unreliable because no one knows what the management will do next, or sometimes whether it will even turn up for the gig.

    I remember a classic event in the early 80's occurring when a special was badly disrupted due to the last minute non appearance (on the morning in question) of a particular engine. The reason was nothing to do with the condition of the engine, but the owner noticed that the weather outlook wasn't too good, and he decided that he didn't want his engine to get wet. So he pulled it from the job within hours of it being required. At least that was the excuse, and an appalling one at that. Maybe he just didn't feel like a day out that day after all, who knows. I do remember Bernard Staite was almost in a state of despair. But ever the diplomat he described the situation to others as 'staff problems'.

    The 6201 society have never done anything like that, but at times they have been a whisker away from it.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Once upon a time it was. I remember those days, long since gone, I'm afraid.
     
  8. Bob Meanley

    Bob Meanley New Member

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    Jim,

    Given the somewhat aggressive stance above , perhaps you might care to tell the rest of the audience what significant contributions to main line running you have made since the rather irrelevant events which you have related from almost 30 years ago.

    At least the 6201 boys are still doing something positive rather than pontificating from the comfort of their armchair. Rather than spouting, if you are so concerned get out there and pay somebody to travel behind it whilst you still have the opportunity. I somehow doubt that you are that committed, but I could always be proved wrong.

    regards
    Bob
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
     
  10. Impala

    Impala Member

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    I don't know who you think you're addressing. But perhaps you should grow up a bit instead of playing futile guessing games, or letting slip your own shortcomings. If you're still sensitive about the selfish behaviour of loco owners in your neck of the woods decades later, that's just too bad.

    I'm not answerable to you, and I'm simply telling it how it is, as 95% of the forum readers will understand. Speaking of main line running, it would be nice if people like you would spend a bit less time stabbing other loco operators in the back, instead of accusing others of such things. As I pointed out, 6201 has a lot of potential, and all I and most others want to see is all the stupid nonsense that goes on put to one side. If you think it's something to condone then that's shameful.
     
  11. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think 95% would agree with that.
     
  12. deri1996

    deri1996 New Member

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    A friend of mine recently told me that at the 6201 AGM held on Sat 6/6/2009, Alan Scott the recently appointed engineer for 6201 announced that he had resigned from his post this was down to various issues. This role would be taken over by Richard Watkins from LNWR presumably paid...... as he would be a contract engineer......????? (Don't quote me that one)

    Alan Scott was to remain with the society in an advisory/liason role.
     
  13. Impala

    Impala Member

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    Various issues eh. More of the same perhaps.

    Still, Bob Meanley - or at least the person who calls himself that - thinks it's all good.

    Very odd.
     
  14. maitland

    maitland New Member

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    Hello I like coming on this forum sometimes for a laugh. I see the armchair experts are at it as usual YOU should do this YOU should do that SOMEONE should do the other. Just do not expect ME to get my hands dirty. I have no connection with the 6201 society but I do know that all societys have personal/interal political problems at times. Anyone who says otherwise is IMHO telling porkies. At least these people are doing something anyone can sit at a computer posting comments even I can ! I was involved in a small way as a volunteer/support crew member with a well known group for nearly 20 years until I stopped recently for a number of reasons. Reading threads like this just confirms to me that I made the right decision to stop. Time to buy some overalls & show us how it should be done gentlemen ? regards John Lummas
     
  15. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    I think the only winner in this argument will be time.

    I'd love to see a BR Green Lizzie and a few years ago they said "over my dead body will Oliver Cromwell leave Bressingham", at one time 4079 was welded to it's rails and Duke of Gloucester had a cylinder removed by a musuem ! Like all regimes..no matter how self important someone feels, their strength will utimately fail.

    There's no doubting 6201 will out live us all, whilst not everyone agrees with it's current management's approach, the management will eventually change.

    At least for now the management are looking to keep the engine operational, like them or loath them 6201 is working, they are trying to keep it working, even if the short term future is unclear theres enough people to guarentee a long term solution .. thats assuming the current management don't deciede to scrap it in three years time !

    I think Locomotive owners go through a psychology.. they work hard, restore their engine and become proud owners... at the second stage they realise their popularity and ride the wave of their locomotive, then suddenly reach a 3rd stage where they resent their popularity, dont like suggestions from their fans, rebel and become engrained.. generally at this point they self destruct... but the engine lives on.
    I would hesitate to imagine this coincides with "hours Labour of Love", "Enjoying the fruits of hard work", "oh my god the cost of it".."tell everyone to go away and sod it".
     
  16. Impala

    Impala Member

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    Talking of laughs. I'm interested to know what the definition of an armchair expert is, and how do you recognise one when all you see is something in print.

    This phrase is used so much these days, that it just seems to be a last resort defence that is used by people who have no useful contribution to make i.e. they themselves don't have a clue what they are talking about.

    What it says to me, and I suspect many others is:- This person has made a very good and telling point, and I haven't got any kind of intelligent response to counterargue with. So I'll try to cloud the issue with an attempt at ridicule.

    It doesn't really work you know. You just end up looking silly because it's so obvious you have nothing useful to contribute.

    In this particular case of 6201, it would be nice to hear some sort of representation in support of the management, and their strategy. As it is, all we hear is how people keep giving up because they can't cope with the stupidity of it all, and a wall of secrecy because those that are responsible can't bear their self serving activities and incompetence to be revealed to the world. Ala North Korea, Burma etc, albeit on a nano scale. So one can only draw the conclusion that the situation is every bit as bad as it appears.
     
  17. conireland

    conireland Member

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    I've kept quiet for a long time in this post... 6201, the loco, is a fine engine. Why are there so many people trying to detract from the spectacle that is 6201 by having such tittle tattle on a railway forum? Surely, by being involved in the preservation movement everybody's aim should be to extend/better the loco's and lines that we already have so it can be enjoyable for all?
     
  18. R Barnett

    R Barnett Member

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    It is not the engine that people are moaning about, just the chairman who is a muppet!

    Rich
     
  19. Impala

    Impala Member

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    That's quite something. Sometimes less really is more, and there's no better example.

    44 pages of postings, all neatly summed up in one sentence.
     
  20. 5596

    5596 Member Account Suspended

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    Hear Hear! =D>
     
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