6023 King Edward 11

The French quote continuous output not maximum. That is to say sustained output with both boiler pressure and water level maintained. The superheated atlantics in France could maintain 1600ihp (1900ihp with Lemaitre), if Churchward had applied his improvements to "La France" correctly he would have seen a similar figures. Anyway back to 4-6-0s, could a "Star" sustain 1700ihp or even a "Castle"? Further could a double chimney "Castle" with later modified 4-row superheater sustain 2000ihp? If not, then perhaps the GW did not learn the all right lessons from its French purchases.

 

It would perhaps assist this debate if correct chronology were applied. Whatever came after, the plain fact is that the Great Western Railway bought 3 state of the art French compounds which were considered to be the best on offer, and they turned out AT THAT TIME to be no better than what Churchward achieved with his simple expansion engines. What you fail to consider in your blind adoration of French compounding are the many other circumstances and constraints which affect the overall economics of the steam locomotive, but particularly the French paranoia about fuel consumption due to the fact that France did not have an awful lot of decent coal available and had to make the very best use of imported coal. In the UK, Churchward's loco's were at the very top of the economy league, and their durability and reliability put them way out in front of any one else's loco's in effecting cost reductions over what went before. Whilst many of the French compounds undoubtedly effected good economies in fuel consumption, they were very much a mixture of quite archaic engineering practices, and were in many cases insuffuiciently engineered to endure the stresses and strains placed on them by their "souping up" and the power outputs that they were capable of developing, you only have to look at the Chapelon 4-8-0's to see the damage such things caused to frames and the like. Very much like racing car engineering really - made to show off but only last for a few hundred miles before something needs fixing. All very well throwing figures around , but you really need to do a bit more study on the social and economic front, which will hopefully allow you to present a bit better balanced view on the true place of the French compound. Oh and before you accuse me of blind bias, I do have a great admiration for the real 242A1, and Marc de Caso's 232U1 was probably the best engineered compound loco ever built in France - did he not base much of it on current American engineering practice?

 

I think the key to this debate is the difference in calorific value between the French coal and the Welsh. French coal isn't too good in this respect while the Welsh steam coal used by the GW was the best in the world. The French engineers had to get the maximum power possible from their engines with their coal so went down the compounding route; a good decision in their circumstances.

Also French operating practices had an influence. French drivers had to have an engineering apprenticeship under their belts, they had a far better understanding of the steam locomotive than their British counterparts. In addition the French railways ran a few, but very heavy, trains on each route every day and there was a 75mph speed limit. This meant that they had to run hard uphill as well as down. This contrasts with British practice where the drivers were self taught and exposed to a good many irrational prejudices from their colleagues; where the practice was to run many fairly light trains on each route and, because of the lack of a national speed limit, the practice was to slog uphill and run hard down in their very much smaller engines.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that compounding found favour in France and elsewhere on the continent but not here.

One influence on Churchward was the divided drive and four cylinder propulsion in addition to the design of the the four wheel bogie.

Regards

 

Spot on Orion.

The other thing to bear in mind regarding drivers is that all of the training which you mention cost the French much more than us, as did their policy of retiring drivers earlier than us (at 45 if I remember correctly). This cost to the French railways, which must have been considerable, never seems to get mentioned by the adherents of compounding in France.

 

One influence on Churchward was the divided drive and four cylinder propulsion in addition to the design of the the four wheel bogie.

Regards[/QUOTE]

Re the above comment, I also had it in the back of my mind that Swindon copied the de Glehn bogie, but if you look at images of La France etc, the plate frame bogie is nothing like the American style bar frame, equalising beam, bogie that was standardised on the Churchward/Collett 4-6-0s (and Stanier Pacifics). Strange.

 

This post drifted onto the subject of the performance of the "Kings". If Churchward had taken the other route, not having tampered badly with the French compounds, what might have been? It is reasonable to say, in the light of developments over the years up to the date of the last modifications to the "Kings" as built, that the GW would have had a locomotive capable of maintaining 3200ihp. It would not suffer from "crazy" Frence design office practice, would have been robust, reliable and efficient but would not look like any GW engine we know. People talk a great deal about the Chapelon 4-8-0s but one has to remember that there was a great deal of spite circulating. They did give trouble with the bogie axle boxes but that was down to sub-standard lubricants and they would suffer because of the drawing office issue - C19 detailing shall we say? - but untill the 141Rs I think everything did. The SNCF 3 cylinder Chapelon designs were an amalgam of best American and French practice with welded bed plates and all sorts of other nice bits. Sadly none were completed.

 

6023's boiler steam tested on Monday and preperations are now being made on returning it to the frames.

 

Hopefully it won't be too long before we see a bit of BR blue down Fishguard way if the cut-down cab and safety valve bonnet/chimney are fitted... I'll put my Bulleid patriotism aside for once and wish the Didcot chaps the best of luck in completing what seems to have been a long and arduous overhaul.

 

Is 6023 going to be mainline tested? and to we expect to see it say next year 2011?

 

6023 was reboilered at Didcot on 24 July. Here are seven photos, plus one of the rolling chassis of nascent Saint 2999 Lady of Legend:

http://andrewsheritagetransport.fotopic.net/c1876213.html

Cheers

AN

 

I am surprised at the small diameter of the hole that the steam pipe goes through, I suppose the pipe is quite thick, and its not obvious when fitted up. I guess at pressure that is quite a big I.D.

 

Well done to everyone in that team, it's fantastic to see her looking "almost ready" like that.

Can't wait for the day when she's standing in Paddington ready to haul an express down the GWR mainline!

 

That's good to see. Thanks for sharing those photos Andrew.

Cheers,

Paul

 

Great to see her coming together, although I guess (from an uneducated point of view) that there is still plenty of graft needed to get her fully piped up, painted and polished ready for a debut.

As one of the "impossibles" its going to be a really special day when she is officially launched as a "runner", with full credit to those who didn't write her off as beyond hope.

 

Brilliant pictures there, very steam age! Can't wait to see her back and breathing fire once more and that Blue is very striking.

 

Stunning pictures. Can't wait to have 2 Kings on the mainline and I love BR Blue (steam liviery).

 

When she's complete, 6023 is going to look stunning in blue. I reckon the general feeling will be that Didcot were absolutely right to paint her blue for the first period of running. Variety is the spice of life, she can go into 1940's GWR green later. I bet she'll sound fierce with that sleeved single chimney, as well.

Can't wait!

 

Have just seen the latest news on the Mid Norfolk website - http://www.mnr.org.uk/news/ - so with 6023 doing its running in followed by service trains, as well as the usual visit by 9466 it looks like the MNR will have a Great Western appearance next summer!

 

It was reported a couple of days ago as going to the NVR so it will be interesting to see which or both comes off.

 

It does mention June & July at the MNR so it shouldnt be an issue to do both. Anyone know why its going so far 'off piste' to do its running in?

Chris