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60009

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by BillyReopening, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    It’s a big commitment for support crews, many of them will have day jobs and they will normally sign on the day before the tour and not finish until the early hours of the morning after it.
     
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  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    exactly John . The money and the market is in London and you can see why RTC, Steam Dreams want to focus their business there whilst they can .

    we should also remind ourselves support crews are unpaid volunteers
     
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  3. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Not joking, why should I be? If 60009 were to get a reprieve and be given another overhaul when would it re-appear? I would suggest after the appearance of 2007 and from a tour operators point of view which of the two locomotives in question makes the most sense? The P2 can accelerate at a higher rate for a given load, can handle heavier loads and is unique. It will run at 75 mph and has the advantages of being new.

    The V4 should be a 75 mph engine. Though it has 5' 8" driving wheels it is a 3 cylinder machine and the K4 was rated at 60 mph, not the 50 mph that so many like to assume. The V4 will have roller bearings and other refinements, have a look at Part 6C, the loads went up and the engine just performed.
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    There’s plenty of room for both the P2 and the A4. We don’t know yet but I would think the P2 will be more route restricted than an A4.
     
  5. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    The P2 should be able to go to most places. The main cause of restrictions with most locos is the width across the cylinders, and the new P2 will have smaller cylinders than the originals, made possible by its higher boiler pressure.
     
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  6. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    If Union were to return I think the overhaul need not be protracted. It could be signed up by Team Riley who have an excellent record of servicing the A4. They could soon get on with the A4 if a contract were to be signed but speed of its return would be dependent on if the engine could be made to be a greater priority than others and fit into the contracts already being undertaken. That would also effect the cost of the overhaul as speed would need people and thus cost more. Personally, I think there is a balance to be struck, but even if it were to be done by Riley's team the overhaul would be very unlikely to be taking as long as ones such as Sir Nigel Gresley who was done by their own team and contractors, or the likes of Blue Peter which has been worked on for some time as the new company is being established at Crewe.

    Off topic (P2 and V4): It doesn't matter what things should be - now its a question of what Network Rail regulates and with small driving wheels it will be capped at 60 mph. The P2 'should' be able to lift loads quicker but in all honesty what's needed is the same loads as a standard tour and for the engine to be reliable. Yes it will be a 75mph machine - but the fact that it is new is not to be taken as an advantage over others. This is something that Tornado has wanted to mention before. New build is great but it is still a design built to 1930-50's technology - yes it can be accurate and have tolerances that might be smaller than some, but it is still a steam engine with oil lubrication, outside motion and coal fired... no different to an engine like Union, the Duchess, Rileys Black 5s that are built at the time but maintained to an excellent high standard and have just as tight tolerances as measuring the maintenance has allowed specs to be more accurate.
     
  7. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    An overhaul of 60009 is extremely unlikely. If such an event were to take place the timescale cannot be guessed but has to be realistically calculated which means that you really have to know what you are dealing with. And you will not know this until the locomotive is fully stripped down and all components have been tested and inspected. You pointed out the overhaul of 60007, which is pretty well documented, a tale of the known, the suspected and the discovered. Dealing with it all will take as long as it takes. The cost will be what it has taken to get the work done. Back to 60009 in the event of an overhaul, the issue is money. Who is expected to pay for it?

    Neither the A1 or the P2 are simple, slavish copies of an earlier design. They are the next in the series incorporating much in the way of improvements (though perhaps not so many as some might like), and incorporate features that were not found in locomotives built in the 1930-50s in the UK or elsewhere either in some cases. We could say that the Union, the Princess Coronation class, Black Fives in general are the same as Stephenson's 'Rocket' and at a fundamental level that is true but we know that the devil is in the detail and they show examples of a continuing development process. The reality is that they are not the same at all. There comes a point in the life of a machine, a locomotive in our case, where running costs increase to the point where it makes more sense to build a new engine - the new Double Fairlie is a case in point.

    There is no 'should' about lifting loads the engine just will, there is no escaping the basic numbers, 43,462 lbf. of tractive effort and in excess of 80 tons of adhesive weight with boiler, steam circuit and mechanical details refined to match the demands made upon them to deliver the requirements needed to make best of these numbers.

    According to NR the 5' 2" diameter driving wheels of the K1 put it in the same speed band as the 8f. But the K4 was in a higher band, my understanding is that John Graham made/supported the case for this upgrade. you could say that the 504 rule applied to the V4 means that a 75mph limit is very conservative.
     
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  8. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Aren't we overlooking the Clan here too?
     
  9. Johnme101

    Johnme101 New Member

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    I heard a rumor that the Cameron family is planning to sell 60009 and 61994 after John passes.
     
  10. twr12

    twr12 Member

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    Have the the rumourers had sight of Mr Cameron’s Will then?
     
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  11. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Woah there, peeps ! ..... that's all a tad "previous", given the gentleman in question is still in the land of the living.

    Stroll on!
     
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  12. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I believe they are owned by a trust so the future of the locos is not in the hands of the Cameron family.
     
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  13. Britfoamer

    Britfoamer Member

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    Why let a good rumour stand in the way of fact :D! The news papers have been at it for years!
    The rumour mill on the line side Saturday was that 60009 needs a mainline test run again before its next stint of duties, and it's likely to be this Saturday around the Carnforth circuit. May be true, but they are usually weekdays, and it needs to leave the ELR first.
     
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  14. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

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    Definately won't be this Saturday, doesn't leave East Lancs until Monday at earliest.
     
  15. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    Any idea of what could be the last tour its working?
     
  16. Victor

    Victor Part of the furniture Friend

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    A rumour eh ? Aye, ok.:Banghead:

    Mr Cameron is still with us (long may it last) and he deserves a bit more respect instead of some of the crap that's being posted on here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  17. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Dave down the pub has been at it again.
     
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  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    He has indeed. Told me that for her last run, 60009 is having her valences refitted and having a crack at Mallard's record. :rolleyes:
     
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  19. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    That's not the right livery for it though...
     
  20. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Member

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    Hear it is Casey Jones doing the driving on the day....
     
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