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60009

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by BillyReopening, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. Tim Light

    Tim Light Member

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    Granted, it's a star loco. But so are Mallard, Evening Star, Green Arrow, Hamilton, Lode Star, Winston Churchill and many others. Is it morally wrong that these star locomotives should be displayed in museums?

    I'm not saying that I prefer them to be stuffed and mounted, but the question is whether it is immoral.
     
  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    As has 60532, Much as I love an A4 let's get the A2 out the box and see what she can do. Much as I love an A4, I'm looking to seeing what a Scottish A2 can do, Anyhow back to No9
     
  3. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    You keep using the term "immoral", but I don't think anyone else has used that term in this debate. It doesn't simply mean 'not moral', it has deeper overtones, from its alternative meaning (per the dictionary) 'licentious or lascivious'. While totally scrapping a historic loco might be seen as 'immoral' (in the usual sense of the word), I don't think plinthing one would. (I certainly don't.)

    'Moral rights' started getting used here simply to distinguish from 'legal rights', which are broader, and generally un-contested (here and externally in the heritage rail world).

    I think prior discussion has shown that i) many (most?) people don't set the 'legal' and 'moral' boundaries in the same place, and ii) of that sub-set, there is disagreement as to which side of the 'moral' boundary plinthing falls on - and it's not clear that there's a clear principle that could decide that last point. Rather, it seems to be a 'de gustibus' situation, where individual positions will be based on how people weigh the relative importance of conflicting factors such as a) the wishes of the person who saved an engine versus b) people who think the ability to experience these dynamic machines in action is important. That being the case, probably the best one can hope for is that people who disagree on it agree to disagree; 'YMMV', as the Internet meme has it..

    (A similar analysis would also seem to me to apply to the 'are legal and moral boundaries congruent' question, although the general form of that philosophical question is of much broader import to society.)

    Noel
     
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  4. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    The fact that you are in a queue does not guarantee that you are ever going to reach the front of it.The RSL&GT and the SNGLT have an agreement in place and unless use can be found for two A4s then 60019 will not need to be touched for several years. And as the network continues to change who can say with any certainty what the railway landscape will be like in, say, seven years time? If 60019 does require a great deal of work done to it then it would make sense to concentrate on those engines that would be less costly to keep operational. With 60007 back at work I would question the need for another A4 to be on the mainline and looking to the future how many engines will be needed to work within the ever increasingly restricted network?

    John Cameron has made a very reasonable decision in the circumstances. The future for locomotives owned by an individual is looking more and more difficult. Costs are increasing and both they and their charges are not getting any younger. Keeping the locomotives at work is not getting any easier, the engines are getting older and getting an income for the use of the engine sufficient to cover day to day costs and pay for the next overhaul is not easily achievable.

    The creation of new locomotives is also a factor. Some of them represent a far better choice for the future than designs that are 80 or so years old.
     
  5. Tim Light

    Tim Light Member

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    An interesting post, and I now see your point about legal vs moral boundaries.

    I suppose there is a utilitarian argument that says that an operational A4 gives the most pleasure to the most people, as compared with (say) putting it in a museum or scrapping it. On that basis, perhaps, Mr. Cameron would have a moral duty to sell the loco to someone who was prepared to keep it on the main line, whatever the cost.

    A counter argument is that Mr. Cameron has already given untold pleasure to many people over many decades through his operation of this loco, and it is unfair to expect him to cede ownership at this stage in his life. In a museum it will give pleasure and education to a different generation, who are able to get up close and inspect its 20th century workmanship.

    As you suggest, there is no natural law that offers a "right" answer to this question.

    For myself, as someone who contributes relatively little and gains such a lot from other peoples' efforts and expense, I consider myself fortunate to have experienced 60009 in action, and have nothing but gratitude to Mr. Cameron and those like him.
     
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  6. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If its contrary to planning policy, its contrary to planning policy. Amazing how many people seem to promote a relaxed and flexible attitude to such matters until the application directly affects them.
     
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  7. Enterprise

    Enterprise Well-Known Member

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    Deleted - wrong link
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  8. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Member

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    Planning is all about precedent, and you are quite correct, doing something outside the box, is fraught with NIMBY's.
     
  9. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    Has anyone got much confirmation about how many more tours Union is booked to work?

    :Nosewhacker:

    Off topic: You are joking right? Most of the new build are not suitable for mainline work... The Saint will be limited due to water capacity, the V1/3 tank is the same and should have been a Thompson L1 instead. The Patriot might have water but its questionable how fast and strong it is. Certainly doubt it can take standard loads for charters at load 10 +. I think the V4 will be limited on speed.

    Only the P2 stands a chance of being the powerful express locomotive to join the ranks that's needed for load 10+ at 75mph. That's why Union being retired will make a massive dent in the ability of steam to be mainline, although Tornado is lucky as they are picking up work from it all.
     
  10. Johnme101

    Johnme101 New Member

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    Once Nunney Castle and Blue Peter are back running. Plus Britannia has a quick overhaul. Bittern will likely get its overhaul and they have a spare A4 boiler. There is plenty of work for at least two A4s on the mainline. Especially as 60009 is due to come out of service this year.
     
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  11. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Member

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    A small point about plinthing - if the concept never existed, 2 of the surviving 3 Duchesses would no longer exist - and they’re the 2 which have since steamed!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    I think your forgetting 2 things.... A - that some of the overhauls your mention are taking their time and B - that steam engines now are being signed onto contracts to work with some TOC's and occasional if any work for the others. As a result, you might not see engines running where they were before and its possible that some will be retained by some companies, which will affect their use.
     
  13. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    The fact still remains that at present there is a surplus of main line locomotives looking for work
     
  14. Johnme101

    Johnme101 New Member

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    Not really.
     
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  15. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    I don't think there is of class 7+
     
  16. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Member

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    You wouldn't think there's a surplus on some occasions; take the scrabble for an alternative to 60009 last November. Equally, does such a scrabble produce the right locomotive for the the trip? Whilst we were lucky to have 44871 for the mammoth run to Shrewsbury and the crew did their best, the trip was still geared for the 8P.

    Overall, I think it's easy to forget how on a knife-edge locomotive availability actually is. It's fine when everything available is working well, but panic stations seems to ensue when alternatives need to be found by promoters (as distinct from operator/promoters).

    Consequently, there is probably room for more 7/8Ps on spot-hire. Whether this would affect the demand for 5MT or 6P locomotives is an interesting question.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    But not necessarily of Class 8.
     
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  18. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Well-Known Member

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    Likewise the DCE programme for the past two years has basically been dependant on 60009 and the availability of its support crew to do may tours close together.
    I understand the same availability may not exist for example with the Duchess support crew, or at least did not a few years back. If tours run mid week then people may have a "day job" to look after.
    The Jacobite operation removes most of the Black 5 pool and as has been mentioned the railtour market segmentation means not all locos are available to all operators.
     
  19. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    VT, WCRC and IoS have a selection of tours run in/from their local areas and in the main using home fleet engines

    London and tours starting from their have become something that generates work for what I will gently term non affiliated engines with 6233 and 60009 semi regular performers . Quite how it is viewed by their owners and support crews being so far away from their respective homes I'm not so sure
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    That doesn’t mean there’s a shortage of engines. Getting a path crew and especially a support crew together at short notice is a big logistical problem on the modern railway.
     

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