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5952 Cogan Hall

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by paullad1984, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. kieranhardy

    kieranhardy Well-Known Member

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    Why..?

    They have one awaiting overhaul.

    Again... why?

    I didn't think they wanted a hall of their own.
     
  2. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Ideal size for the West Somerset and they do seem to like Great Western engines for some reason, and still seem to have an appetite for doing Barry rebuilds. The asking price also seems quite reasonable compared to some silly prices we've seen quoted for ex-Barry Bulleids, for example.
     
  3. kieranhardy

    kieranhardy Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why you think they still like doing barry rebuilds, i don't recall a restoration from scrapyard condition taking place recently, apart from 9351 in 2004? Yes 2874 appeared but she has since been sold.

    I was under the impression Halls wernt ideal for the line on a regular basis due to the gradients, and of course they arnt the most economical on coal compared to other locomotives running there.
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I thought the WSR 28/38 were to do with the 3850/Dinmor Manor group rather than the WSR directly ?.

    A mixed traffic GWR class 5 would be a handy thing to the WSR, but with so many projects currently on (Norton Fiztwarren, GWR rake etc) would it be prudent to stretch the balance sheet at the moment ?.
     
  5. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    QUOTE]Not sure why you think they still like doing barry rebuilds, i don't recall a restoration from scrapyard condition taking place recently, apart from 9351 in 2004? Yes 2874 appeared but she has since been sold.

    I was under the impression Halls wernt ideal for the line on a regular basis due to the gradients, and of course they arnt the most economical on coal compared to other locomotives running there.
    [/QUOTE]

    Not the most ideal loco for the line? Why have they got three Manors then? - there isn't that much difference in size. Why did they like the class 4 2-6-4T (80136) so much? If a Hall isn't suitable for the gradients, how come the 2-6-0 is? The WSR bought 2874 as an ex-Barry engine and were prepared to do it before changing their minds in favour another Manor, and it isn't so long since Braunton was outshopped. The 38xx and Halls share common boilers as well

    If a Hall can't cope with the West Somerset garadients it does make you wonder how Black 5s and B1s manage on the NYMR!
     
  6. kieranhardy

    kieranhardy Well-Known Member

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    The WSR seem to prefer coal efficient locomotives, and for that line a Hall isn't, the standard 4 was. Braunton was a contracted job surely anyway, there's a bit of a difference between a contract overhaul to buying your own barry wreck and restoring it.

    I didn't say halls couldn't cope with the gradients, i said they arn't the most ideal locomotives for gradients like that, and the locomotives currently running on a regular basis are better suited.

    Manors are completely different to Halls, being a similar size has nothing to do with what makes a locomotive efficient, and in my eyes Manors are relatively smaller engines than Halls, and yes, can cope far better on the WSR as they were surely designed to run on routes like the WSR and others with far steeper gradients.

    2874 was originally bought by WSR Plc, who then sold it onto Dinmore Manor Locomotive Ltd.
     
  7. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I'd be interested to know how much of a difference in coal efficiency there is between a Manor and a Hall, or a Hall and a 38xx (which the WSR use a lot). As for ability, as far as I'm aware, a Hall is supposed to be an inherently better hill climber than, say, a Black 5 by virtue of its Stephenson valve gear, I'm also intrigued to know where the gradients on the WSR have appeared from - there's only one of any significance that I'm aware of. The point about Braunton is that it is an ex-Barry engine restored at the WSR in recent times - you said there wasn't an example since the mogul which is clearly untrue, and the company was originally prpeared to tackle 2874 before a better opportunity came up. Over the years trains on the WSR have become heavier and the composition of the loco fleet has moved towards bigger engines, so a Hall would make very good sense for them. You could argue that they chose 2874 over the Hall that was available at the same time but Cogan Hall was a much earlier departure from Barry and probably in much better condition.
     
  8. Rumpole

    Rumpole Part of the furniture

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    2874 had a good tender; it was pretty much said at the time that this was one of the major reasons for buying it.
     
  9. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The idea that Halls are not good hill climbers seems a strange one, Collett would of been fully aware they would of been expected to work well West of Newton Abbott.
     
  10. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Nor would vintage trains let their halls regularly do battle on climbs such as the lickey.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A strange thing to say. The many protagonists of the GWR will delight in arguing that their locos are generally good hill climbers and that long travel valve locos are very economical on coal and water. As for comparing with a Standard Cl4 I would have to see some properly derived figures to accept that they were significantly less economical. And, I seem to recall that a WSR favourite is the S & D 7F. By your argument, a coal gobbler like this would stay in a siding for virtually all its life!

    Of course it makes sense to use the smaller WSR locos when they can be used but there are many occasions when class 5 power is deemed to be a more sensible requirement, as I'm sure any knowledgeable WSR person will tell you. There are very few heritage lines that need class 5 power but the WSR is one.
     
  12. kieranhardy

    kieranhardy Well-Known Member

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    It's amusing how you say a Hall isn't ideal for a line like WSR and all of a sudden i'm saying they can't climb any hill to some people.

    I did state the WSR PREFER coal EFFICIENT/ECONOMIC locomotives. A larger wheeled locomotive is not that. Halls were not designed for 25mph running on a continual climb. 61264 if you think the WSR has one noticeable climb then you need to revisit. There is a 4 mile long climb out of Bishops Lydeard and of course the climb to Washford to name but two.

    61264, Braunton is NOTHING to do with the WSR, yes it was a barry wreck, yes it was restored there, but it was a contract overhaul. 9351 was the last locomotive of their own they restored. They bought 2874 but quickly put it back up for sale, that would say they didn't really want to restore it. And as has been said, the main reason for purchase was for the tender.

    I am fully aware of what vintage trains run, as i am fully aware they are mainline locomotives that do not run at 25mph continually.

    Anyway,

    I've had my say, if people want to take what i've said and change it then fair enough. Maybe i should have said they arnt ideal climbers at 25mph.... but i did think people would know this fact on a railway forum. I wont be responding again for people to just twist what i've said and make me repeat what i have already said a 3rd time.
     
  13. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    If you make questionable statements, which I don't think I twisted in responding to them, then I think you have to accept that people will argue against you. I have no idea whether the WSR are interested in this loco or not but I'd be surprised if they aren't, looking at it logically. Guess we'll just have to agree to differ on that.
     
  14. green five

    green five Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ah but what stops him buying another? He has several Bulleids.
     
  15. 63601

    63601 Member

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    So if someone is saying a Hall isnt suitable for the WSR, what about a loco like 3850? Just out of curiousity what locos rand on the Minehead branch in Br days?
     
  16. brit70000

    brit70000 Member

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    Simple realy, he's a collector at heart and like most collectors is unlikely to be looking for too many duplicates!
    The "several Bulleids" you refer to consist of one West Country & one Merchant Navy. When he bought the Merchant Navy from SLL they were offering 35027 & the hulk of 35022 as a package, SLL were not willing to part with 35027 unless the buyer took what remained of 35022 as well. As the boiler from 35022 was deemed to be in better condition than the one on 35027 the "kit of parts" that was left of 35022 turned out to be useful donor. The rest of what's left of 35022 is stored at Southall along with the boiler from 35027. Apart from frames, wheels & cylinders there's nothing else left of 35022, so it represents quite a challenge to make that a viable loco again. Could be done one day, but not in the immediate future I suspect.
    If 5952 has a realy good boiler I guess it could be looked at as a possible spare for 6960, but as 6960's boiler has just been fully overhauled I don't realy think a spare boiler would be high on Mr. Hosking's shopping list right now.
     
  17. In BR days the line was subject to a restricted axle loading of (I think) 18 tons, so the motive power was Panniers, Small and Large Prairies, and Moguls, all GWR types, with some BR Class 3 2-6-2Ts towards the end of the steam. Larger locos (inc Halls) were banned from the line. The traffic was lighter in those days except for the through trains which were handled by Large Prairies (and later by Hymeks).

    In the mid-1990s, the WSR quietly invested heavily in strengthening the infrastructure - quite a financial and technical undertaking given the length of line and the great number of overbridges - to a max loading of 23.5 tonnes, thus allowing (almost) any loco to run.

    The current requirements are well suited by the Class 4 machines - Large Prairies, Mogul and Manors - with the Small Prairie type being used to early/late season, and special, workings. Of course, the most suitable locos are not always available, thus the 2-8-0 types see a lot of work and, in any case, are needed for some of very heavy high summer trains. A Class 5 loco would not be dismissed as unsuitable, even for the long gradients on the WSR. As ever, there is rarely a loco truly suitable for the current WSR, but WSR 2-6-0 no 9351 and BR(W) 2-6-2T no 4160 must come pretty damn close!

    The WSR is an ex-GWR line and sets out to re-create, as much as possible, a GWR branchline experience - hence the preference for GWR locos. But with one thing and another, the aim is not always possible to achieve all day every day everywhere.

    Thanks for the interesting debate in this thread about the WSR!

    Steve
    (WSW)
     
  18. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Granted but there's plenty more far less suitable loco's out there, a 6'0 4-6-0 is more suitable than a 6'8 Pacific for example.
     
  19. brit70000

    brit70000 Member

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    Interesting example, but the WSR don't have a 6'8" pacific, so maybe not the best example to quote?
     
  20. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Manors are BR class 5
     

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