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5593 to be restored?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 60044, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    If Galatea is still running as Alberta by the time Kolhapur is finished, it would be good to see them working turn about on the S&C, as in the last days of their BR existence... Add to that Bahamas and Leander also being Northern-based and it's something good to look forward to! It will be interesting to see Bahamas' performance compared to Kolhapur's too, I've read before that in the last days of their BR lives, Alberta was always a good steamer, whilst Kolhapur was a poor steamer...
    I'll have to consult my books and find out what superheaters they all have...

    Richard.
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    You can't really mistake the contraption atop 5596, it dwarfs the rest of the loco!

    With single v double chimneys there are a lot of other considerations, such as correct proportions, blast pipe height, petticoat position, etc. There have been some poor double chimney types and some very good single chimney installations supporting excellent steaming. I'm not a fan of the Britannias, but no-one can doubt their steam raising capacity.
     
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    All this talk of single and double chimneys, you just know the Southern was better than anyone else. Two chimneys? Pah!

    [​IMG]

    Tom
     
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect you are underestimating both the determination of different independent groups to see their own projects through, and the sheer visceral nature of steam locomotives as inidivudals with their own character. The fact that I have been lucky enough to drive and fire two different P class locos (323 and 178) doesn't make me less determined to see a third (27) restored; likewise I didn't hear many people saying that "We've got a Merchant Navy on the mainline; why do we need any more?" as 35018 approached completion. Likewise I guess with Jubilees: the existence of three isn't likely to dissuade the owners of a fourth from pushing through with the overhaul, regardless of how many chimneys it has got.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Everyone has their pet loco. Everyone has their pet projects. End of the day, steam railways and their locos are about tugging at the heart strings.

    What motivates me to do the finances for MNLPS won’t be the same as someone else for something else.

    Variety is the spice of life and all that...
     
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  6. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I wouldn't argue against that logic. People and groups attach themselves to projects like magnets and that is what makes it difficult at times for folk to be taken off their pet project to work on another. Coaches are even worse I think.

    As for 5593, I would be happy to see another on the main line irrespective of whether it has a single or a double chimney. The name of the game on the main line now is gauge friendly locomotives and sadly that limits what is possible. But a Jubilee just tips the scales on the right side.
     
  7. 007

    007 Member

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    People who think that Covid 19 is a blip and something that we need not worry about in the long term are deluding themselves. Our industry is facing seismic damage on a scale that no one can comprehend. Im sorry if this is a bit doom and gloomy for some but Im watching the devastation this is recking on our industry and its no where near over yet.

    My point about 5593 wasn't about whether it would be nice for it to steam or not, but more is it appropriate that this moment in time? They are constantly appealing for funds to overhaul locomotives, that is wonderful and they should be congratulated for the effort they are making. They are championing mainline steam and that really is fantastic.
    It is wrong to compare 35028 with this. 35028 is a single loco owning group with one clear goal which I support wholeheartedly.

    VT is a large organisation with multiple locomotives in its care and multiple appeals going all at once and starting another million pound appeal in the middle of a pandemic with an almost unachievable goal of 2022. If it is to be done in this timescale, which would be amazing, the cash or at least most of it, would need to be there now.

    To be clear, I would want to see 5593 run again, absolutely but, was quite simply asking you to think about it. At this moment in time, with 3 others in mainline operating condition, my opinion on it stands.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  8. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    It does look a bit out of proportion doesn't it? The Britannia boiler was developed from the Stanier Coronation boiler wasn't it, hence its steam raising properties. I've read that the Coronations could have been improved further with a slight increase in flue tube diameter... If memory serves me correctly they are 5 1/8", and it was suggested 5 1/2" may have improved them. I'll have to look up what size the Britannias were, when I can get to my books.

    Richard.
     
  9. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Correct, but this would have raised the superheat temperature rather than steam raising capacity by allowing more of the hot gases to pass alongside the elements.
     
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  10. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    I think that was the problem on the Coronations, due to the length of the superheater elements - steam was actually being cooled as it returned to the header, I believe the elements were lagged on the ends of the return loops. I think I may have an article on Duchess of Hamilton which covers all this - If I find it I'll post it on a new thread, as it's interesting reading in its own right.
    As for the Jubilees, I don't know how many superheater rows the survivors have - I know that many experiments were tried, and that their steaming could be very fickle.

    Richard.
     
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  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Near the beginning of Galatea's return to main line running I remember one of the West Coast fireman saying that its steaming capability was very hit and miss in that it built up steam well but it also went down quickly and it was difficult to maintain a balance. I believe that changes were then made to draughting and within the smoke box and it now seems much better and not a problem at all. I think that this may have been necessary adjustments to Galatea rather than any inherent problems with the loco design.
     
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  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    The 5Xs were always a potential problem with steaming. If you got a good one, decent coal and a driver and fireman who knew their stuff, they were unbeatable. But if any one of those four were below par, you could have a fight on your hands. Their steaming was never, despite all the research, reliable in any except favourable circumstances, which is why most men always preferred a Black Five except on a fast express turn.
     
  13. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

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    The boiler barrel and tube cross sectional area is virtually identical on the 5Xs and the Black 5s (accepting that there are a number of variations) but the grate area is larger on the 5Xs. I think this results in the cross sectional area of the tubes of the 5Xs being below the desirable minimum of 15%. of the grate area. Thos would certainly make the engines more sensitive to the factors set out by LMS2968


    Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
     
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  14. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    You also have the draughting for six beats per revolution rather than four. This is often given as the reason for their initial problems as there were no three-cylinder engines on the GWR, but it's unlikely that Stanier would be involved in the design to that level of detail and the LMS already had excellent steaming from the Scots and Baby Scots. It would, though, be a factor.
     
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  15. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Would there be any point in improving the steam raising capacity of a Duchess? I believe it was already limited by the physical ability of a single fireman to shovel coal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    It’s a pity no proper testing was done with Bahamas or, as far as I know, any of the other three Jubilees that had a double chimney fitted at some point during their service. The Kylchap fitted to Canada surely must have made a difference.
     
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  17. Victor

    Victor Part of the furniture Friend

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    Or where it was based ?..............................;)
     
  18. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    Right, I'll have to go hunting for my copy of Cook's "Raising Steam on the LMS"!

    Richard.
     
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  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think I learnt more from Cook in 200 pages about boiler design than anywhere else I have read.

    The main thing I learnt about boiler design being - I'm glad I never have to design boilers ...

    Tom
     
  20. Railcar22

    Railcar22 New Member

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    According to this website http://douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/chimney/chimney.htm. That was an experiment by Bullied to make the loco somewhat stealth, so that it would harder to spot by Germans planes. it didn't work so was removed shortly after.
     

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