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48624

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 46118, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    Nice to see the picture in the Railway Herald including my brother wielding a paint brush, it's a long time since I've seen him working.

    At least the bits he painted were black :-#

    Seriously I think it looks great and it will be a credit to the team that have stuck it out over the years in very basic facilties. Don't forget those people that were heavily involved with the loco that are no longer with us to see the first steaming, which will be? :-#
     
  2. papagolfjuliet

    papagolfjuliet Member

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    WCRC owns a 'Hall' which has been painted bright red for the past ten years!
     
  3. papagolfjuliet

    papagolfjuliet Member

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    I find it interesting that the people who are currently threatening to boycott Peak Rail because one of its resident owning groups has painted an 8F red apparently couldn't have cared less when that railway outshopped three perfectly good Austerity tanks in BR black.
     
  4. 76079

    76079 Member

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    A coat of paint is merely a protective coating over the metal work, doesnt prevent the engine from working and can easily be changed.

    If the photographic brigade want to abstain for fear of this "heinous" paint scheme shattering their very expensive SLR lenses/ cam corders, let them abstain, chances are some of them wouldnt contribute to the railway or the locomotive anyway.(and please whilst there are many photographers who contribute a great deal you all know there are many who dont)

    I for one will be journeying to Peak rail to view the 8F groups efforts and have a ride behind it. Paint doesnt stop me from getting my face covered in soot, the smell of steam, the gunfire sound of the exhaust and the feeling of absolute brute power that oozes out of every 8F i have ever come accross.

    Honestly its just a colour, Joe public dont care what its painted as they dont know the difference anyway. Just this week i witnessed a mother informing her child that a northern rail purple 158 was thomas ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) let the 8F group enjoy the fruits of their 20 year labour instead of lambasting all there efforts because they have dared to be different. They are to be congratualted.
     
  5. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    The application of Red to 8624 is no different to S&DJR blue to 88 and LNER Green (Not the BR version of apple green it was built in) to 1306 , both liveries the engines never carried . Similarly 2005 has run in LNER Livery as has 532.

    It is very easy to get emotive about a coat of paint 3440 in BR Black especially springs to mind but some of the comments on here must really be like a punch in the Guts to the guys who have spent so long returning her to traffic, especially coming from those who have contributed nothing to the overhaul . I know I can be caustic although i'm trying to mello that with age and hopefully a little wisdom and apologies to anyone I have offended
     
  6. porous pot

    porous pot New Member

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    I don't think you are being unfair in the slightest, Martin. I have said before that unless you own the loco or have paid for the paint, then you have no rights of suggestion as to how it should be painted. Yes, some of the comments must feel like a punch in the guts to those who have spent their time, energy and cash in return this loco to service. The right to paint it any colour is theirs AND THEIRS ALONE.

    As another poster said, it's only paint and who knows, one day a photo charter organiser (Martin?) might organise the repainting into Southern Malachite Green with Sunshine Lettering. Then it will be the right of the people who paid for the paint to do as they wish (with the authority of the owners of course.)

    If other people don't like this, then they can put their hands into their pockets, buy one of the locos currently on the market, pay for the full restoration to working order, organise working parties to do it, pay for accommodation somewhere, then paint it in the livery of their choice. THEN let them see how it feels to be told what they have done is wrong, historically, technically, morally or just plain falsely.

    Personally, it's another 8F shortly to enter service. Fantastic!
     
  7. malc

    malc Part of the furniture

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    Yes, and that's probably the most popular loco with the general public of those operated by WCRC (except for the time they operated a certain apple green A3 with double-chimney and smoke deflectors!)
     
  8. porous pot

    porous pot New Member

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    Ouch!
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah but they do have a right of suggestion, it's called free speech, but the owners of course have the absolute right to ignore completely these suggestions and carry on as they see fit.
     
  10. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Exactly Ian , spot on as usual.

    They who restore have at least the first choice of livery, however if some photographic group for example want to sponsor a change of livery at a later date, then nobody should have a problem with that.

    The wagon group on the Mid-Hants were heavily critiscized for painting a 1937 built CCT in crimson. Ths fact that it could easily have run in this livery fell on deaf ears, so I suggested that they buy the expensive paint and brushes and come and do it themselves. I also pointed out that the crimson was genuine B R paint got from Eastleigh when it closed down at the best possible price, IT WAS FREE.

    I did not hear from any of the dissenters again.

    Regards
    Chris Willis.
     
  11. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    Sorry Frank, much as I hate to disagree with a gentleman of your calibre, but both the Scarborough Spa and what was last year the Dalesman were worked quote a bit by a loco in exactly the same livery as the offending 8F - 5690 Leander. I am pretty sure that 4965 was worked by West Coast on Tysley jobs in Great Western liver, as is 5029.

    As for which market - I am afriad that heritage railways will tell you selling a diet of entirely black locos to the general public is not easy - a bit of variety and colour attracts the punters.

    I say well done to the 8F lads for completing the restoration and gaining a much higher profile than they would with a BR black loco. It is not as though it isn't a genuine livery (it is for the right owning company, and worn by many locos from the same design stable), just not one worn by this Class. In some cases (S & DJR No. 88 for example), "bending" the rules is the only way otherwise lost liveries can be shown and it is surely a better representation of Railway history to have a variety of liveries from their near 200 year history than only those from about 1950 (allowing to for development of BR liveries as opposed to BR lettering on Big Four liveries) to 1968, whatever may recreate the youth of photographers.

    I suspect that just as BR liveries have gained hold in recent years as preservation is currently "run" by those who remember BR, over the next few years Big Four or sooner will return to some extent as the generation who first knew steam in the 1970s, when anything but BR seemed to be a preference, take over. All I can say is thank goodness for variety.

    I do wonder what enthusiasts on Germany find to argue about - from after the First World War, everything was basicallyblack with red wheeles and frames - all you could argue about was the owners name and style of lettering or logo!
     
  12. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Excuse me ? it's my choice to visit wherever i feel i want to and it's rather pathetic you think it acceptable to belittle anyone who doesn't visit because they are not interested in whats on offer, does Butlins abuse everyone going off on package holidays abroad ?, that sort of attitude is not going to win me over is it.

    Preserved Railway need to win passengers to survive and abusing potential customers is suicide.

    What annoys me sometimes is some people seem unwilling to accept people may have differing views to theirs and moan about it, well tough that is life, some people have one view, i have another, accept it, no one is saying the owners have to listen to me, but by the same token i do not have to see the 8F if i don't want to and that is my choice, not anyone elses, for example Kerosene Castle's view seems to differ from mine, he puts his view across in a well thought out adult manner however rather than belitteling and borderline abusing anyone who doesn't agree with him.
     
  13. papagolfjuliet

    papagolfjuliet Member

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    I fully accept your point of view and your right to express it: my point was simply that people are far more likely to insist upon authenticity where main line locomotives are concerned than they are where the loco being repainted in an inauthentic livery is an industrial. Apologies for the misunderstanding; I was simply making a general point about the apparent perception that industrial (and for that matter foreign) engines are somehow worth less than their British main line counterparts. As I said, I can guarantee that far fewer people were put off by Peak Rail's fleet of phoney J94s than by its red 8F. I will say however that I was one of them, as Austerities in BR liveries are a pet hate of mine.

    That said, I do not think that the general public care about liveries. They want a nice view from the train window, clean toilets and coaches, a decent cup of tea and a bacon butty at reasonable prices, ample parking, somewhere for the kids to play, a sanitised 'hit' of nostalgia and a steam engine. Liveries are the least of their concerns, and you will not upset Joe Public by painting an 8F red, an Austerity tank in BR black, or an A3 with German smoke deflectors in apple green.

    A Spamcan in NSE livery might be pushing it a bit, mind, but there's only one way to find out. ;)
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    OK Bean Counter - I'll give you three nights of 5690 out of how many WCRC operated trains over the years - and would you like to guess what livery 5699 will come out in. I'm not talking about TOC operated excursions - I'm talking about trains operated under their own banner.

    The market dictates and that operator makes its preferences clear when it's money is at risk.

    But a red 8F - sorry - pass the sick bucket! I'm not against variety in liveries, or pre nationalisation, but when the colour chart comes out to see what class "X" would have looked like in something it never wore - OK in water based for a weekend, and blast it off - but long term - Count me out.

    I believe that preservation is either that - or something else - marketing for profit - indulging egos - or just not caring what others may say.

    So as an owner - you do as you like - but don't complain if others aren't impressed - because I'm not.
     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    45699 will come out in BR green because David Smith likes BR liveries. I think it has little to do with the market. After all what does it matter what colour a loco is when you're riding behind it? My reason for travelling on the main line is for sound recording and microphones are not colour sensitive. Is there any evidence to suggest that tours worked by 5690, 6201 and 6233 are less well patronised that locos painted in BR liveries? I've been on sell out tours hauled by the first two - 6233 has avoided me so cannot comment on that particular loco.
    Still not keen on red 8Fs though.
     
  16. Dan Hamblin

    Dan Hamblin Part of the furniture

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    Just as an aside - it will be interesting to see which way the livery debate goes once the number of visitors who remember BR steam start to dwindle in numbers.

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  17. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    Personally I find an 8F carrying an incongruous name a bit of a turn-off .
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    Spamcan - it may well be that BR livery is his preference - but the choice of livery for locos working his services is for merchandising reasons - really!

    And BR does not have to be exclusively black.
     
  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'll have to take your word for it as I've had no dealings with WCRC beyond booking a Scarborough Spa ticket but my experience of tours behind locos in non BR livery - and it's a fairly long list - is that they still sell.
    I presume you deal with WCRC so any chance of finding out when 46115 is doing any of the Scarboroughs this year?
     
  20. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I did originally intend after my last couple of posts not to bother again as i felt i had got my point across, however i think it might be good for the thread to give a theory why the 8F is proving more controversial than other inaccurate loco - previous loco's had had some sort of connection to the colour they carried whereas im not sure the 8F has, let me explain with a few example:

    5322 - carried Khaki when sent to France
    3650 - wore blue when sold into industrial service
    6100 - although not in original condition the loco did indeed carry crimson lake in the past
    1306 - Mayflower didn't wear LNER green but certainly other B1's did
    9600 - Paddington ECS loco's wore lined black

    All these liveries were unusual/inaccurate but there was a connection between the type/loco concerned and the livery is carried, doesn't appear to be any such connection for 48624.

    Just a thought.
     

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