If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

45305

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 05micfis, May 13, 2009.

  1. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I recall reading somewhere 44767 came in for the higher limit due to having roller bearings, no idea how much truth is in it though, not being familiar with the said machine.
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    5,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Hmmm... Can't see how that effects the piston speed!
     
  3. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    1,107
    Location:
    Oxford
    Returning to the subject of 45305 and it's possible return to the mainline: the 5305LA are going to be pretty busy. They are also the custodians of 70013 and 30777. Ollie will be racking up the mainline miles this summer with a tour almost every week until the beginning of September. Remembering also that their home base is the "land-locked" GCR, I'm guessing that we won't normally see more than one of their locos on the mainline at any one time. Although 777 and Ollie were both at Carnforth for a while last summer, I would expect this to be the exception, not the rule.
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Must say i was less than convinced but thought maybe someone more familiar with it might know.
     
  5. 05micfis

    05micfis Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    On PSOV's Mainline 2005 Volume 2, 45231 looked to be doing over 70mph just outside Andover.
     
  6. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    Bristol / Priddy
    Just a thought about 44767, isn't it more likely that the Stephenson link motion would be the reason for 75mph rating? I'm not paticularly au fait with the effects of Stephenson's, but wouldn't this variation of valve gear affect piston speed?

    It appears that there are several explanations of the reasons that certain restrictions are placed on certain loco's and I am not doubting any of them, however it would be interesting to see what the official guidelines are, these must be available from somewhere?

    Regards

    Paul
     
  7. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Unless there was a difference in the driving wheel diameter or the piston stroke, then the type of valve gear would have no influence on piston speed.
     
  8. fentmar

    fentmar New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    6
    Impala/Bongo,

    If you are going to assert that people have an agenda why don't you say what it is.

    I think you will find that the only agendas in play are to look after the engines in question and not run increased risk of engines breaking down and clogging up the national network that we are privelaged to enjoy our hobby on.

    I would love to drive my 1970's triumph stag at 120 mph round country lanes but I'd probably rag the tyres, blow the engine up and generally ruin all the work spent restoring it a damn site quicker than if I cruise a little more sensibly- when I've spent a whole bunch of money restoring it.

    If you are better informed on the engineering theory behind why 75mph is more optimum from class 5's then why don't you share it in a constructive way rather than uttering conceited messages about knowledgeable and professional people who have good regard for the upkeep of their engines and the reliability of running the things on the NR and who are also very concious of the reputation and longevity of main line steam.

    I do find you informative Bongo but to me your sl*gging and inferences do not do much good for anyone not least yourself
     
  9. Impala

    Impala Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    Nuneaton
    lol - It seems as though you haven't understood the posts. Trying reading them again. Unless of course you're another one of those (or even one that has been referred to) that like to see a whole class of locomotives restricted to the degree that they cannot work certain types of train that their owners would like them to and for which they are suitable, whilst very closely similar locomotives are not.

    The comparison you make with your car is akin to operating a class five at much higher speeds, which is not what is being discussed. Would you want to restrict your car to 55 on the motorway, 15 mph below everyone else? Of course not.

    You seem to be arguing in your forth paragraph that the owners of these engines are unwilling to operate them at up to 75 mph. In which case why was 45305 tested at that speed on a passenger train? That sort of speed is typical of what was expected of them in daily passenger service. Higher than that when they were used extensively on the Midland main line. You are the one posting nonsense I'm afraid.

    The question of reliability and longetivity of steam on the main line has more to do with quality and inspection procedures than wearing engines out more quickly. If they were in everyday traffic, that might be a discussion point, but they are not. Some engines barely make 10 outings a year, which if they are meeting the requirements will not significantly reduce their life. Otherwise they should not be on the network at all, whatever the operating speed range.
     
  10. 6136

    6136 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    40
    Lot of talk here about a bias against Black 5's from those with favour GE/GW designs. Since the 60 limit also applies to Hall's it would seem if this is so the GW minded seem to have shot themselves in the foot!!! Typical of most conspiracy theories this one ignores facts that don't support it's view.
    Also surely 44767 hasn't been on the main line since the line speed was lifted from a blanket 60 has it?
     
  11. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    3,246
    Location:
    Powys
    44767 was operating in the late 90's as I have it on one of my PSOV videos. It's last run was 14.02.98 on a Cumbrian Mountain Express, so it would of been subject to the higher speed limit if allowed. I think Impala is spot on with this that we are not talking about restricting locomotives that will self destruct at sustained 75mph running as a) Very similar locos operate at this speed without falling apart b) History shows the locos are capable and used to do these speeds and more in normal service and (c) It would appear a couple of loco owners are keen to certify their locos at this speed. I don't think we should criticise Mr Riley for wanting to limt 45407 to 60mph as it is his choice but likewise should other owners choose to operate their locos quicker and 45305 has shown it is very capable of sustained 75mph running on test, obstacles should not be put in the way to prevent this. As a comparison to GWR Halls I would suggest that there is no need for 75mph certification as i think they perhaps would struggle to sustain this. Maybe 65 or 70 would be useful as they are more than capable of cruising in the mid 60's over a long distance-as has been proven in recent years-but perhaps that is just making a change for change's sake. I am surprised that 7802 was passed for 75mph as I would think she would struggle to sustain this, anyone care to prove me wrong?? Did she hit this speed on the Staite Pullman with 6024? For me a higher speed limit should only be given to locos that can run at that speed for 30-40+ miles comfortably, not for locos that can only hit these speeds when being worked very hard and/or sustained for short periods only. This isn't a case against GWR locos (which I am very fond of) just my opinion built from riding behind Halls on the mainline and I would be gladly proven wrong about these machines and their capabilities, though I think Bob Meanley has made his position quite clear on this. I think there is a great deal of difference between a GWR class 5 and an LMS class 5 however, a black 5 being in my opinion much better suited to class 1 passenger work and I feel a 75mph limit would reflect this. I await to be corrected!!
     
  12. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Im sure piston stroke more than anything else was the reason for the lack of desire to take a Hall any quicker, i'd be suprised of the Swindon No1 boiler wasn't up to it so maybe more of a chassis issue ?.
     
  13. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    3,246
    Location:
    Powys
    Maybe a ride issue as well, even Castles i've been told can be a bit hair raising for the crew at 75 mph-i would guess that a hall would be even more interesting at that sort of speed! Halls are known for their fast acceleration and high short term power output which made them excellent for stop start inter regional services but as far as top end speed was concerned I have honestly no idea how good they were. I'm sure they probably did manage some good speeds in their day but were they able to hold it and did they do it regularly? Black fives however seemed to be regularly rostered for fast parcels services and would quite regulary substitute for express motive power. I doubt we will ever see a Hall registered for 75mph (rightly or wrongly) but I feel it is unfair to restrict a black five because of this which is what is being implicated by others on this thread, each loco should be judged on it's individual abilities.
     
  14. Impala

    Impala Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    Nuneaton
    I've been told that when Rood Ashton Hall was on one of it's farewell runs last year, it had been authorised to work up to 75 mph, and did so.

    I'd like to hear some verification about that. Because unlike most of what I discuss on here, I can't verify it to the degree that it is absolute fact. Do any other readers have further info on this?
     
  15. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hell, aka Hull
    It'll be more to do with the way they're balanced. I can't remember what speed Halls are balanced at, but I think it's a bit below 60 (Bob can probably tell you.) Once you start going over that, you'll soon know about it!

    As for what they can do, one of the more famous jobs was when a modified ended up on the Bristolian at Little Somerford, after some Castle had given up the ghost. The remaining 90 miles to Padd were done at an average of just under 75 (start to stop), mind that was with 7 coaches. The modifieds at least, were capable of running up to about 90. I don't think they ever made the ton, but I believe one came very close.

    Of course none of that was normal running, and while the network still allows it, I think 60 is about right.
     

Share This Page