Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 05micfis, May 13, 2009.
When is 45305 due to return from repairs, and will she still be mainline certified?
Hopefully, before the end of the summer and, yes, will be going main line.
Thank you for the reply. I hope there are plenty of opportunities for her to double head with 45407, 44871 or 45231.
Are plans for certifying her for 75mph canned now? I know that when she returned last time she did have a 75mph test run (featured by Mr.Notley in Steam Railway) and having travelled with her on several Vintage Trains specials theres no doubt that shes an awesome machine, the run to the Crewe open day will remain with me for a long time as she clawed back a late start due to arson. Seems mad that Black fives are limited to 60mph while the B1 was allowed 75mph (i know that it's down to fractional differences in wheel size!).
I find it stupid as well that Black Fives are only limited to 60mph and B1s are allowed 75. It seems wasted that 45305 had a 75mph test run and once she's on the mainline she is not allowed to run at it. #-o But it is a lot better when they are on steep gradients and they have to work harder. By the end of the year we should see four of them on the mainline. =P~ By the way, should 44932 be returning soon and will she be mainline?
It's got more to do with one particular person who has a consultancy role and doesn't like black fives. Supported it has to be said, by someone else who has a slightly more active role, but doesn't like black fives either.
There's quite a long saga associated with this. But in summary it was justified on the basis of a 1920's technical article about desirable piston speeds, and the suggestion that preferably it should be kept below 1600 feet per minute. Which neatly limits a locomotive with 20" piston stroke and 6' driving wheels to 73 mph. As there is no limit of 73 mph it is pegged back to 60, which achieves the objective of certain people of excluding stanier class fives from real express work.
The last thing I heard was that a case for 75 mph was being prepared. But that was a while ago.
I suspect that other matters, such as getting the loco back together and running has taken precedence.
I've never understood why the frankly daft and outdated system in having a non negotiable 15MPH jump in top speed still exists, isn't it about time intermediate limits of 65 & 70MPH were brought in based on a classes ability to run at these speeds ?.
Also the system of purely basing speeds on driving wheel diameter alone is nonsense, the mind boggles that Black Fives are restricted to 60 yet 7802 was upgraded to 75MPH briefly before it got pulled from Mainline work, good as 78XX's are i doubt they would hold such a speed for any length of time.
That sounds a little more positive then, I never realised 7802 had actually gained 75mph clearance-that shows it can be achieved. Also 9466 had it's limit raised to 45mph which she demonstrated very comfortably on the Ironbridge run. I know Ian Riley doesn't want 75mph for 45407 but thats down to personal preference on increased wear and tear. Certainly 75mph clearance would be a lot more useful and would result in an increase in work for 45305. The use of 45231 on Cathedrals Express duties a few years ago shows how capable they are but the 60mph limit prevented more widespread use of it on these runs. With it's go anywhere clearance it wuld make it a very useful locomotive. Is Bert Hitchen interested in 45231 having 75mph?
Who says it's non-negotiable? As I understand it, the speed limits, based mostly, but not on entirely, on wheel-size, are the defaults and exceptions can be made for particular locos (48151 and 9466 come to mind). There are extra hoops to be jumped through, but it's possible. Also, it would be possible to set the speed limit at 70, or even 65, if that was appropriate for an individual loco.
When the new rules were published, I remember reading postings on this forum from Bob Meanley and Ian Riley, saying that they were quite happy to operate Black Fives and Halls at 60 mph, and that the extra wear-and-tear of high-speed running on medium-sized locos was probably not worth while.
So - if the 5305LA want to go for 75mph certification, I don't think there's anything to stop them.
I seem to remember reading that Pocket Rocket cleared is for running at 50mph under WCRC drivers but only 40mph under DBS as it is now, because they didn;t apply for the upgrade in speed limit. Other than possible benefits in regards to pathing and extra loco wear what else does the extra speed actually achieve??
Last time I was talking to a driver on 76079, I noticed that the speed limit notice in the roof had separate maximum speeds for running forward (60mph, I think but could be wrong) and reverse (45mph I think). No mention on the notice that these applied differently for different TOCs.
I think the maximum speeds based on driving wheel size are included in a Group Standard, so it would be possible in any case for an application to be made to the RSSB for a Derogation from this aspect of the standard. As operating a Steam Locomotive on Network Rail metals involves making around 80 such applications, it would simply (!) be a matter of making the appropriate case to the RSSB.
Yes, all tender steam locomotives on the mainline are allowed to travel faster running forwards(smokebox first) than reverse (tender first) because there is better visability smokebox first.
Only a little bit better. The main reason is steam engines are more stable at speed running smokebox first as most have bogies or some kind of leading truck to guide them around bends and over points, as when running tender first you dont.
I thought the reason was because of the problems of pushing the tender - the springing and so on is not up to the standard of a loco's leading bogie/pony-truck. Forward visibilty must be about the same either way, and might even be better tender first - no drifting smoke, no smoke deflectors, etc.
Don't forget that the coupling on a tender is under compression when running first, combined with a rigid wheelbase on the tender, so its not as stable as when it is being pulled. Water sloshing around isn't the most evenly distributed of loads either
O yes agreed, i just didnt think a detailed explanation was needed.
With reguards to 76079 she is permitted to run at 60mph with both DB & WCRC Smokebox first and 45mph tender first.
My wrong, must have been speculation on here at some point, god knows there such a lot of it to wade through.
A while back there was something that would have limited the 8F, 76079 and i think 9466 but this was resolved.
45231 is passed for 75 mph, isn't it? I'm sure when the Driver was showing people on the footplate at Scarborough last summer I remember seeing 'Max Speed 75 mph signs' on the inside of the Cab (and it definietly achieved this speed on the day).
Separate names with a comma.