Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by 73129, May 8, 2008.
I hope we will see her on the VSOE SURREY LUNCHEON SPECIAL.
Doubt it, not until the contract is up for renewal, and even then.......
Lets hope we get a few main line charters in the South of England.
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Lets hope not,you've had your turn last time!
I'm quite sure 4472 would be capable of making the Devon Banks........
If your going to be like that i could talk about GWR engines on Ais Gill.......
Plenty of things to think about on both accounts!
Apple Green,Single Chimney and no deflectors........ If only....
I hope she does come down to the south. I've said before we get naff all mainliners down the south east of England. Only in the last week I read in SR mag that Tangmere will finally come down to Eastbourne on 31 August this year and I bet that will be the one and only mainliner down this way for the rest of the year! [-X
So please let's get Scotsman or for that matter any steam mainliner down here for as many times as possible because we get next to nothing in terms for steam mainliners to the Eastbourne and Hastings areas
I have to say though what do you expect? Regular runs would be pretty hard to do with limited capastiy and with no preserved lines currently with a mainline connection(not including Mid-hants) in the Hastings, Eastbourne Ashford area its not exactly easy to run! Especially with gauging issues, Tunbridge wells Tunnels being a prime example.
Though yes I would like to see Scotsman darn sarf....preferbly running up towards TWW but that not very likely....Look good on bluebell too....and maybe KESR....yes I am dreaming!
"4472 over the Devon Banks? Ha ha, I dont think so, unless there is a push available.........
Wondered how long it would be before someone bit on that!!
No reason why 4472 on Dainton wouldn't work - give her the RIGHT load, and good coal (and if a 90 ton shed is in the consist, make sure it can deliver power when asked to!) - same applies to GWR on S&C.
Incidentally, 4472 has visited the P&DSR twice, and managed on it's fierce climbs ok in the dry on a 7 or 8 load
....Oh, and apple green - nothing else would do [-X
The MHR is a great place to keep a main line loco not to far from London.
Main line running on week days and Saturdays.Then on Sundays the MHR could use her.
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You'll wake up and find smileys all over your engine...
I think it should be in LNER condition and livery, not BR condition and LNER livery. Make your mind up NRM, you want to create an exact A3, spending vast amounts on an 'authentic' boiler yet will not paint it in the correct colour scheme for its condition. If you want it in LNER Apple Green then only put a single chimney in it. If you want a double chimney and German Smoke deflectors then paint it in BR Green. ](*,)
Totally agree - the mismatch is so wrong and this could prove very confusing for the future generations of railway researchers.
I would hope they can trust the NRM to have their exhibits appearing as accurate as possible.
wartime black, with a gold NE on the tender- authentic livery, tells a story about an important time in its life, fits the bill perfectly.
however, the NRM has to look at what the paint represents, rather than the paint itself. A double chimney significantly improves the power output of the engine, which is vital if the engine is going to be working heavy mainline tours across the country. The smoke deflectors massively improve the flow of the smoke away from the cab, which will keep network rail happy- the last thing anyone wants is a SPAD due to too much smoke blocking the driver's visibility. And apple green? Well with KE1, Bittern, U of SA, D of G, pitchford hall, nunney castle, sir lamiel, Tangmere, Clan Line, and Oliver Cromwell (almost) on the mainline and all in standard BR dark green, the NRM needs something to make the engine distinctive from the rest of the pack.
bear in mind that the A1's most distinctive feature, the corridor tender, was never used by BR. and that as built, the cab was reversed (not that any respectable paint frother cares about what goes on in the cab)
it all makes wartime black look a lot simpler
Who cares about what pigment is in the protective coating slapped all over it... Keeps the rust off - all that matters...
Consider it this way, take these two pictures I found on a Google Image search...
http://www.virginmedia.com/microsites/t ... img_11.jpg
Now go up to any member of the public and ask them to point at Flying Scotsman. Which do you think more people (and remember, this is the "People's Engine") are going to point at?
I think you'll find that corridor tenders were used by BR - especially on non-stop Kings Cross - Waverley runs - but normally fitted to A4s which were the staple traction for these trains.
I accept that the A1s were never so fitted but then these locos were used on Kings Cross - Leeds services, whilst the Haymarket locos of my time ( 60152 / 160 / 161 / 162 ) were used on Edinburgh - Aberdeen / Glasgow services and English-based examples were often supplied by Newcastle for the changeover on slower Anglo Scots expresses therefore never actually needed the corridor tenders for their normal workings.
But back to the basic question. Flying Scotsman has run in more guises since preservation than it ever did in LNER / BR days so it is inevtable that whatever guise is chosen by the NRM many linesiders will object as it is not their choice.
And that is the point !
As the nominal owner of Flying Scotsman the NRM is charged ( by the world at large ) with running it rather than mounting it as a display item. To that end it needs to be in best mechanical condition, which experience dictates is Kylchap double blastpipe and chimney combined with German Smoke Deflectors, whilst for cosmetic recognition marketing suggests the choice of Apple Green bearing the number 4472. I rather think that this will be the NRM's choice BUT - as owner - it is their choice to make. If any of the linesiders wish to disagree with their choices then I suggest that their concern might be more acceptable had they paid out the multi millions paid by the NRM then they, as owners, could make their choice of both livery and appearance that they seek to deny the current owners.
An old but relevant phrase - He who pays the piper calls the tune - is brought to mind and since the NRM is the current payer then the rest of us should accept we will have to dance to the NRM's tune.
" As the nominal owner of Flying Scotsman the NRM is charged ( by the world at large ) with running it rather than mounting it as a display item. To that end it needs to be in best mechanical condition, which experience dictates is Kylchap double blastpipe and chimney combined with German Smoke Deflectors, whilst for cosmetic recognition marketing suggests the choice of Apple Green bearing the number 4472. "
That isn't necceasrily true. Flying Scotsman has travelled across the USA and Australia, as well as having done the majority of its preservation mainline work, in single chimney form. There is nothing wrong with a single chimney A3, it goes well, doesn't need smoke deflectors and is well proven. Double chimney and smoke deflectors are only needed if one intends to run it as some kind of super locomotive that it isn't. Bring back the beautiful and unbutchered lines of the locomotive as Alan Pegler had it, and stop crapping on about unneccesary modifications done by a man who did more damage to the locomotive than any previous preservation owner.
Wrong ! The NRM conducted tests before withdrawing it from mainline service for its current overhaul operating both with and without windshields and proved that the problem of drifting smoke was eased by operating with windshields. The problem of drifting exhaust was one that plagued the A3s over many years and experiments with 60097 Humourist and its various additions ( including the final fitting of full length smoke deflectors ) bear testimony to the ongoing problem.
Earlier work by Peter Townsend ( which led to the fitting of Kylchap equipment to all A3 pacifics ) confirmed the improvement in fuel economy that justified the cost of the modification even despite the short life span of the locomotives after modification. Given that the locomotive is expected to run on the main line then I would expect running costs to be a mighty powerful consideration in any financial commitment to continued running.
But then Alan Pegler had had to butcher it from its as-withdrawn condition which was Kylchap double chimney and windshields in order to do so. So at the beginning of its preserved life which was the authentic locomotive - the loco as recreated by Alan Pegler ( of childhood memory ) or the loco as withdrawn in its most efficient guise?
The fact that the cost of running 4472 in its original preserved state bankrupted Alan Pegler also indicates that the decision to revert to its original condition may not have been a wise one - it may have looked good to the punters but they didn't have to worry about the cost of running it !
Of course I have no objection to 4472 reverting back to original condition but on the basis that the person who is responsible for its running cost has the right to determine the condition in which it should run then I am quite happy to accept the NRM's choice and thank God that at least it will still run and be appreciated rather than be stuffed and mounted as a dead monument to a future past.
So are you trying to suggest that bankruptcy could've been avoided had the loco remained in ex-BR condition, because the coal bills would've been reduced slightly? Really?!
If the NRM had aquired the loco in single chimney form they would've had to absorb the cost of these increased running costs anyway.
I'm starting to wonder if it would've been better if the loco was never converted in the 90s back to double chimney with moke deflectors....?! Would've saved a whole load of arguments about it!
As for BR livery, that could've been achieved in 'Pegler' condition anyway (single chimney and no smoke deflectors):
- Apple green with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' and number E103 circa.1948
- BR lined green livery with large early BR crest (early 1950s)
- BR lined green livery with late BR crest (c.1958 - 60 ish)
(The double chimney was fitted c.1960 with the smoke deflectors being fitted during 1961).
I think the bankruptcy has more to do with the USA than a minor saving in fuel costs. The minor saving in fuel costs didn't help Marchington did it?
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