4472 What colour

Apple green, single chimney, no deflectors for me. Although recently I was watched a DVD of Steam 1999 that featured Scotsman in Apple Green, no deflectors but with a double chimney, and she actually looked quite good. Isn't this the best compromise of performance against general livery approval?

Also there is this photo on the SoS website showing a boiler being fitted, I'm guessing this is a test fitting?

(Can't post a link to it right now, the website is down)

 

What is it that people can't understand about vehicle acceptance?

It is my clear understanding that Scotsman was tested without the deflectors and visibility was deemed unacceptable - hence they must be retained.

 

It's not a case of not understanding, I didn't know!

 

Quite ! As do many others who hark back to a state which is incompatible with modern main line running. The modern railway scene is unforgiving and more technological than designers such as Gresley, Stanier, Bulleid and Churchward had allowed for and it is to the credit of owners that locomotives from these designers are still able to operate main line workings on the modern network.

Such an opportunity requires some compromise; if you won't accept the compromise then be prepared for the locomotive(s) not to be allowed on the main line but be confined to heritage lines where their speed potential won't be seen or sampled.

 

I agree that compromise is essential to keeping steam on the main line. But do you think restoring a single-chimney, as used by 4472 on the main line from 1963 until the late 1990s, would now disqualify it from Network Rail?

 

To put it simply no. If the logic used on Scotsman extended elseware then all of the main line Castles would be double chimney fitted and for that matter the King at Didcot (6023?)

 

Sorry Fred but I think you are mistaken. A single chimney A3 is not incompatible with main line running. What makes you think it is? A single chimney didn't seem to hamper 4472 during its last main line ticket and a single chimney hasn't hampered 4771, 70013 and 5690, let lone the multitude of Black 5s and Halls passed to run on the national network.

 

One thing puzzling me is that only a few months ago there were pictures of the replacement right-hand cylinder being offered up. Yet on a visit to the NRM in October 2008 I photographed this being done. What took so long?

 

Here's the photo with a boiler being test fitted http://www.flyingscotsman.org.uk/photos/2009/image1.aspx?parentpage=0

 

I didn't state specifically that a single chimney A3 was incompatible with main line running - only that some changes were necessary without describing which. I had earlier suggested that the Kylchap double chimney appears to be best suited with the German smoke deflectors because of the confirmed exhaust problems that arise without them - and also that I actually prefer that style of 4472 irrespective of which number / livery it carries. I do not however expect to quibble with the NRM on its choice of livery / number as long as it appears on the main line where it can be best appreciated.

Unfortunately some purists will disregard / be unaware of the current main line requirements and it is at those quibblers to whom I directed my main argument regarding the need to make alterations necessary to comply with current network requirements irrespective of how unoriginal they are to the original design.

It also the problem that in its preservation life 4472 has borne many diverse features and number system / livery combinations. Just to be awkward I presume someone might actually ask for 4472 to run in its American tour guise complete with cow-catcher and bell - a state in which it actually powered a railtour in 1968 shortly before being despatched to the USA from Liverpool Docks.

Lets just acknowledge that 4472 is a unique case and that the present staff at the NRM are prepared to operate it on the main line thus we should be grateful for small mercies and let the NRM be aware of possibilities without demanding them in order to restore 4472 to main line duty.

 

That's the boiler simply being tried in the frames. if you look, the wrapper has not been drilled for stays and the inner firebox is completely missing. Since then a new foundation ring has been added to the list of work to do. Even though that picture is now somewhat old, there's still a long way to go.

 

Yes, you're quite correct Steve. Something I've just noticed is that she's got all three driving axles underneath her in that photo, but in more recent photos she's got no wheels at all. Is this that problem with wheels being 2mm out as Spamcan mentioned earlier?

Here's July http://www.flickr.com/photos/93042849@N00/3739791191/in/pool-flyingscotsman
and here's end of December: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/4226579094/in/pool-flyingscotsman

 

Perhaps you could list the alterations necessary for 4472 to comply with main line running regulations which specifically would not permit a single chimney to be carried on an A3 yet does permit single chimneys (without deflectors) on 6201, 5029, 45407, 45231, 44871, 62005, 61994, 4965 and any others I've missed. With all due respect you haven't answered this yet.

 

I think the nub of Fred's point is that 4472 and the A3's were modified by BR to give improved and more consistent performance in post-war conditions including poorer coal etc. These are the very conditions we find ourselves with today, and therefore to un-modify it would be to put it at greater risk of failing to keep time on the main line, or alternatively having to have a reduction in loading imposed. 45407, 45231, 44871, 62005, 61994, 4965 are all mixed traffic designs, which were adequate for the work and similar draughting improvements would not have been considered economical back then. 5029 is interesting, having come to grief on at least one occasion due to poor combustion IIRC. So maybe 5029 ought to be "modernised" rather than 4472 being strangled?

 

4472 ran quite happily on the main line in single chimney condition between 1963 and 1999(?) in the UK, USA and Australia. So I ask once again what is it about a single chimney 4472 that would disqualify it from working on the main line today. If we are going to disqualify 5MTs from the debate then we still have 6201 and until recently 4771 in single chimney condition and representing the higher power classifications. They've not been disqualified from running because of their single chimney.

 

Thanks Ian, the only measurements that we can comment upon are the trailing coupled wheel set. This wheel set has “wobble” of nearly ¼ inch. Further measurements will be taken of the remaining coupled wheel sets in due course. When the findings are known a decision can be make based upon the facts.

 

The whole saga is never ending...... It must be utterly depressing for those involved. Has the reason for the 'wobble' been established? Axle or wheel? I'm Really intrigued.

 

Anthony - by "wobble" do you mean the wheels aren't "true" on the axles leading to a lateral measurement across the frames of 0.25" more on the inner face at one extreme than the other?

If so - how does the outer face / flange maintain gauge?

 

Let's hope that it is only the one (and that is one too many), however it does not need much of an error in the boring of the wheel centre to throw an appreciable movement at the rim or maybe ---------- I'm not going on, no point. It never rains etc. Just when you think things are starting to go well. Please keep us informed Anthony, thank you.

 

It is the tyre and we are working on it - it should not delay the overhaul. Thanks for your patience and understanding folks.