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4464 - Western Streak - 18-10-14

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by LMarsh1987, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

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    Oh, come on guys the A4 did it - Fact! and from what I've seen, on its own......... I defer to those at VT to say otherwise......... and I've enjoyed the various recordings of her storming the bank! ;):)
     
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  2. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    One or two posts here smack of "My mind is made up. Please don't cloud the issue with facts".

    But thanks to Jamessquared for some convincing arithmetic (except that the gradient profiles book quotes 1 in 37¾ rather than 37. If that's right it brings the static load down slightly to about 33,200 lbf). Anyway it's still near enough to the theoretical TE of an A4 before you add in the rolling resistance. The kinetic energy from doing 50 mph at the bottom of the bank helps a bit, but not a lot. So the diesel must have been doing some work. Only the diesel's driver knows how much.
     
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  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    No doubt you would have said the same about a BB taking 11 unassisted up Upwey bank but '67 did it. I've been on Lickey when diesels have shoved steam up the bank and believe me, they were working a damned sight harder than the 47 was on Sunday.
     
  4. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    This is what I had in mind for Saturday Night, with the assistance from behind.Glad my forecast was wrong.

     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I was on that trip with DoG. 65 at the bottom and 35 at the top with 13 on. So in this case even with a diesel helping we dropped 30 mph in under three minutes. Some of the previous comments about what would have been possible were the diesel not present with the A4 or merely carrying its own weight are more amusing than interesting, I suggest. No doubt at some point when Bob Meanley has stopped laughing he may put everyone straight but it strikes me that the diesel did enough to avoid the train sitting down on the bank whilst also allowing Bittern to do the bulk of the work. Just good common sense I think.
     
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  6. neildimmer

    neildimmer Resident of Nat Pres

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    Morning All
    I have added a couple of photos given to me by Ken Mumford of Saturday 18th October’s Western Streak
    4464 Bittern Western Streak near the former site of STRATTON PARK HALT (situated some 3 miles east of Swindon Station). 18-10-14
    http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/Railtours-Year-by-Year/2011-/2014/Western-Streak-181014/
    47773 on the rear of the Western Streak near the former site of STRATTON PARK HALT (situated some 3 miles east of Swindon Station). 18-10-14
    http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/Railtours-Year-by-Year/2011-/2014/Western-Streak-181014/i-TvRtKZ6
    Neil
     
  7. 83B

    83B Member

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    And there you have it, the diesel "must have been doing some work". Previous videos prove it as the diesel, while not pushing too hard, was nevertheless pushing. I buy the notion that the driver was probably instructed to assist if speed fell below a certain level as has happened on Upwey bank in times past. Hatherton Hall referred to historical data from the fifties and sixties regarding maximum loads over the Lickey and a train, the equivalent weight of Saturday's plus the weight of the diesel (equivalent to 11 coaches) would not have stop for one banker, there would have been 2 as a minimum on the back and possibly three which may have included the powerful 9F.

    So let us be very content in the knowledge that assistance was clearly provided albeit not the massive shove of previous years but just enough to allow the A4 to work very hard.

    By the way, what was the speed at the Blackwell summit? This will provide support, I believe, to the arithmetic data provided by Jamessquared and historical record from a bygone era to prove that the time honoured banking of the Lickey was indeed provided to a greater or lesser extent. Those who say NO ASSISTANCE was given are wrong and the videos I have seen prove the point.

    Bye bye. It's back to work.
     
  8. hampstead

    hampstead New Member

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    "70013 and 44871 on the lickey incline" is on u tube by way of comparison.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2014
  9. Ben Vintage-Trains

    Ben Vintage-Trains Member

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    To be brutally honest...with a statement such as the above, I am rather glad you did not book on it either!

    If you are looking for pure steam action "like it was in the good-old-days", might I suggest you find a nice preserved railway? They sometimes even dress up in costumes so it all looks the part.

    Out here on the mainline, things get a little bit more complicated; the consequences of a steam loco stalling on the bank (we were only given 6 minutes for the ascent) or slipping to a stand in the New Street tunnels are that we don't get to do it again. The 47 was always coming with us on Saturday, as it is on 1st Nov to Liverpool.

    The mainline is not a playground for steam enthusiasts. It is the real railway. We are dammed lucky to be allowed to run trains pretty much wherever we want, as long as we don't get in the way (and the computer says we won't hit a bridge or platform.)

    There are currently more steam charters running on some weekends than ran in a whole year. In my opinion the golden age of mainline steam preservation is now. Enjoy it in whatever form it takes!

    And for the record, the 47 didn't take much more than it's own weight up the bank & Ray Poole was the driver on 4464.
     
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  10. 84A

    84A New Member

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    Unlike the excellent shot by david1984, I decided to chicken out of a shot on the move in the dark and settled for one at New Street:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/94873334@N05/14966069124/

    Out of personal interest, can anyone confirm whether an A4 has been to New Street before? I've seen photos of B1's, A1's, etc, but never an A4.

    Without doing the maths (and wishing to reignite the debate), i'm fairly certain a small amount of assistance would have been needed on an equivalent load 11 train. I'm pretty sure Jube's were restricted to 5 unassisted in BR, and I know Leander took a couple more than that up in the not-too-distant past, but doubt any steam loco would handle an equivalent of 11 coaches up 1 in 37.

    PS: Thanks of course must go to VT for putting on the tour!
     
  11. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Maybe not a suggestion that provides the only route to such steam action, or at least not until a couple of years ago or even more recently, (ie. 90 mph running with an A4).

    Steam Dreams, (and all the others involved), managed to provide pure steam action like it was in the good old day a few times and quite superbly on the July 9th end of SR steam anniversaries until a year before the departure of Graeme Bunker from SD last year.

    And I am told that others have provided such action within the last two year timescale I mentioned above. Maybe even Vintage Trains!

    So it has been happening. Not often I agree, but outstandingly when the very considerable amount of extra work by all involved has been undertaken.

    Whether it was worth it to all those involved in every aspect of running those trains is information I do not have access too.

    And of course, and you will know this much better than I will, whether it will ever happen again most certainly remains to be seen.

    I just suspect on a very few occasions it may just do.
     
  12. Ben Vintage-Trains

    Ben Vintage-Trains Member

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    Didn't we do something spectacular on 10th May of this year? Something about 1Z48?
     
  13. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    VT usually only take the 47 if there is a good operational reason, I'd say ensuring you don't stall on the Lickey is one of those!, I'm curious about the comment about possibly stalling in the tunnels at New St though, is this referring to the climb up from underneath Moor St to Proof House Jcn ?, the west end tunnels don't seem to have any significant gradient as far as I can tell.

    I cant see what the fuss is about, surely unless you go with the smallest of loads like 5690 did or doubleheaded, I'd have thought most on here are knowledgeable enough to know this was never going to be an unaided climb, simple fact is on some itineries (into Euston for example) a rear tailgunner is more like than others (Chester's usually a good bet for steam only).
     
  14. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Oh yes, I followed it on RTT and it was something that tells me that pure steam action like it was in the good old days can still be found away from a preserved railway.

    Hence my "Maybe even Vintage Trains!" comment above.

    But as many here know, my interest is narrowly focussed on Bulleids out of Waterloo on the lines that saw such wonderful running in the 1960s. Spending far too much time with Owls at present to do much else.

    So I have long waits in between getting the right action out of Waterloo. Although big brother Don does say he will drag me away from my Owl work and get me on a fast Vintage Trains trip.
     
  15. Cambrian55

    Cambrian55 Member Friend

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    Chester has the one great advantage needed for solo motive power, the triangle at the right end of the station for trains ex Crewe or Warrington.
     
  16. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That's my point, that's why that itinerary favours steam solo over heading somewhere that's a terminus with no run round loop.
     
  17. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    It's about not setting off the fire alarms in the tunnels, so diesel assistance obviously keeps the steam & smoke down !
     
  18. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's fire alarms in the tunnels ? :eek:, I know there is in the actual station under the roof itself, but I didn't think that extended to the tunnels at either end.
     
  19. Dean Morris

    Dean Morris New Member

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    If you look at how 5690 done a few yrs ago with 6, theirs very little chance of any loco unassisted hauling anymore than 7 max and that,s taking a risk, from what i heard it,s was the same crew on 5690 that was on 4464,
     
  20. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    You reckon? Read elsewhere that one of the 57's on last weekends Paddington shuttles set the fire alarms off & caused Paddington Station to be fully evacuated!
     

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