4464 Bittern to do 90mph on ECML - 29 June & 27 July 2013

No no no!

If your going to use hills, you want to approach Blackwell at 70MPH on your way to Bristol

 

But did it it did, and the Coronation didn't. The is the year we have been celebrating the achievements of LNER and not the LMS. Whine as much as you like, but thats life you'll have to live with it forever, cos history, she is wrote.

 

Doesn't anything to do with gps run 2 seconds behind actual time?

 

But the RM article is very clear. "[…] the clocking between the signal-boxes of Little Somerford and Hullavington was booked as two minutes for the 4½ miles." gives an apparent speed of 135mph, sustained for four and a half miles. "The timing for some distance by the mileposts with a stop watch was given as 120 miles per hour," gives a sustained average (not a fleeting peak, but sustained "for some distance", however far that is) of 120mph. So already the story as reported is pretty inconsistent.

Tom

As you mentioned earlier the "two minutes for the 4½ miles" could mean a wide range of speeds. If 2903 had run at a sustained 110 mph (say) that would fit in with the signal box passing times (so 2½ minutes for 4½ miles - within rounding error) and an approximate 120 mph by stopwatch (a mile in 33 seconds rather than 30 - as you say it would be challenging timing and holding on at the same time).

I don't think a sustained speed is odd - light engine the loco would quickly accelerate up to whatever was the balancing speed on the long 1:300 gradient.

What it comes down to is whether you believe it more unlikely that it happened (your point of view) or more unlikely that Collett would make up such a story (mine). You pays your money and takes your choice!

best regards

 

I think that sort of thing would be considered unsporting...

Tom

 

Fair enough - put it down as a no score draw.

I guess we'll never know what actually happened, more than 100 years after the event and probably at least 50 since any witnesses died. I just wish that the editor of the RM, presented with a claim for performance that was far in excess of anything else reliably recorded in 1932, let alone 1906, had asked Collett to back up his claim rather than just accepting it at face value - especially given the obvious inconsistencies in the story as presented.

Tom

 

All too long ago and no one is alive to tell the tale, to confirm or otherwise. At least with the achievements of 4464 we have this forum where various recorders of the events can openly discuss their results. Collet make up or embellish the story? You are free to make up your own mind on that one, depends on where your partisanship leads you. Given the reputation of the GW publicity machine .............

 

The Germans would argue that about Stoke Bank

 

No.

 

The US stopped limiting civilian GPS accuracy (selective availability) years ago. See http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/

Some other basic information about GPS accuracy here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Accuracy_of_GPS_data

and an explanation of the importance of clocks here: http://www.mio.com/technology-gps-accuracy.htm

 

Here you go








I got a lot of help from Robin Garn in Hamburg on this. I recall him telling me that there had been some very significant re-building of the track in that general area at some stage. Obviously it wouldn't make a vast difference to the grades, but some.

The above does apparently include a short uphill stretch at 1/300 just before the really high speed. And there is doubt over the 1/1000 where the max was reached. Was it uphill or downhill?

But with those uncertainties I left the profile slightly incomplete. But a generality is to assume that all the acceleration from above about 115 -117 mph was on virtually level track.

A couple of points to bear in mind. Because of the good number of very fast runs by this loco, the possibility of the dynamometer car having been properly calibrated at very high speed must exist. Especially as C J Allen was on one of the other fast runs, (118 mph).

Another point, that I have refrained from making on this thread until now out of respect for Mallard in this year, is that who I think was the overall Chief Mechanical Engineer, (not Paul Roth who was the manager in charge of the high speed tests,: my web site includes a report from him on the above run from the footplate), mentioned a faster run by 05 002. Something above 203 km/ph I think, (127 mph), but with my study full of Owl books and papers I can't find it at present. That was never a surprise to me, and that means not all the very fast runs are shown on my web site. I am sure there were others I came across but couldn't get better details of. This was an extensive series of tests for 05 002 and it is no surprise that in the appalling turmoil that soon followed in Germany that some details may have been lost.

Whether I get back to working on all this is another matter. I was once in the archive room of the DB Museum in Nurnberg and the task of examining all the papers in there for someone with my rudimentary grasp of German was daunting, ( where I have got documents that are obviously relevant I have had good translation help). And of course I would have to get permission to go back, plus to anywhere else records would still exist. And I did find one of the German authors who has covered this subject was not that helpful: I suspect, but do not know for sure of course, that he may not have wanted some damn Brit working on his pet subject!

If people can put aside prejudices and fixed ideas etc this is a truly fascinating subject. But one that may never be resolved as to the real fastest steam locomotive ever. Unless a new attempt is ever made! And in this short(ish) post I've not touched on the USA and the Milwaukee Road locos! But I will say that in terms of looks the A4s beat the very ugly 05s hands down. But as for the best ever looking steam locomotive the Milwaukee Road F7 4-6-4s take a very great deal of beating, IMHO. But only in Black and White! LOL.

 

I saw the speed graph a number of pages back of the thursday run Newcastle - York.
Is it possible to do the same for the Saturday London run?

 

Ploughman said:

I saw the speed graph a number of pages back of the Thursday run Newcastle - York.
Is it possible to do the same for the Saturday London run?

If anyone on the Saturday run from York to London can provide a GPS tracklog (.mmo or .gpx format), I am sure RalphW and I will work together to try and produce something.

Peter, on yet another grey December morning in Manchester
http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/p779589209

 

A few weeks since our last exchanges on this thread, in particular about the measurement of performance on the Newcastle - York run.

My February Railway Magazine arrived today, with an excellent article by John Heaton about the performance on all the three 90 mph runs.

The measurement of maximum speeds was a key focus, especially in respect of the maximum speed achieved just north of Darlington. John says:

"The other contentious issue is the top speed. Again, the range 93 mph to 95 mph was the range discussed on the train. Some may have arbitrarily censored it downwards for political reasons, and others rounded it up for bragging rights. I clearly saw speed climb steadily to and from a 94.4 mph maximum on my GPS display and the uploaded details show 94 mph sustained down the gradient to Darlington. It is a matter of historical record. (my emphasis PJH)"​

Welcome support for the line taken by several of us on here, with special acknowledgment to Big Al.

What heady days those were last year. This is the month of the last goodbyes to the magnificent six - see you at Barrow Hill or Shildon?

Peter, on a dry but bitterly windy Manchester afternoon
http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/

 

Just one more fast run Basingstoke to Woking start to stop behind a Merchant Navy would keep me happy for ever Al!

Bearing in mind the run behind 34087 on 12 cars in 1967. Not an especially fast start from Basingstoke, but around 92 mph on not far off level track after Fleet.

I'd put money on a MN in the same sort of condition 35003 was towards the end, (maybe without the big end noise!), reaching 100 mph or more on 12 cars from a Basingstoke start. That loco may have had a bit of a knocking noise at the end, but it flew like the wind from my first ever runs with it, right up to my last.

For doubters, my footplate run with 34101 on ten cars in Feb 1966, was up to 90mph not long after Winchfield from a Basingstoke start. Despite all sort sorts of steaming problems due to blocked tubes, (most likely a washout had been missed). Pressure 220 psi max on leaving Basingstoke after a lot or work. 160 psi at Winchfield, falling to 145 psi at 90 mph. I think the coal was total crap as well: Tommy Moult was working on the fire nearly the whole time. A damn good fireman, who like a lot in those days, had a great deal to contend with re bad coal and much reduced day to day loco maintenance. I wonder what we would have done that night, (it was the up mail), with decent coal and a freshly washed out loco. ...

Just on topic, as we are talking fast steam running here...........................

 

I have it on good authority that Bittern will do another 90mph dash before it bows out of service ! Invite only though, so i'm told !