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35009, Shaw Savill

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by KentYeti, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Good point Steven, I believe ASLEF also refuse to provide legal representation (in the case of SPAD's etc) to members who work on zero hours contracts, so that would probably stop many options as well.
     
  2. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    If I may comment on this point, 45212 has been very active in the south of England this year and a superb job it has done too - no criticism from me whatsoever,. While I can't speak for Mr Riley, however, I can't help thinking that had 35009 been operational, given its 75mph capability, we could well have seen it operating the trains which have been worked by 45212.
     
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  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    in fairness the 5 is only on these trains because of problems with 60009, which is 75 mph 8p , Ian Riley, will i'm sure if he sees a need to bring 35009 will do so, if paths exist that a 60mph engine can be slotted in theres no need for it just yet, if the costs rise,so loadings have to increase, so needing an class 8, and it becomes more difficult to path steam at 60mph, then that's when I would assume he will look at overhauling 35009.
     
  4. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    To be pragmatic whilst ever Riley&Sons etc has a healthy order book, and needs some capacity for the planned maintenance program for the Jacobite 5's, 35009 is not going to get much attention. Perhaps if one of the 5's has a major fall-down or there is a bit of a lull in business then its there to be worked on...
     
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  5. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Are all the bits still at Bury or have they been moved to Heywood?
     
  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Fifteen years since MN9 arrived at Bury suggests if a lull in business is the trigger we'll be waiting a long time. It might get a nudge if WC/R&SE agreed a joint project but the latter order book seems too full otherwise.
     
  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    and I only said it in jest. A good result.
     
  8. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    As a matter of interest, does anybody know what condition 35009 is in? I know it's ex-Barry, but is it in one piece/partially cannibalised, exposed to the elements/under a tarp/in a shed? Has any inspection been carried out to check the frames for integrity? Just wondering how big a job it would be to resurrect it.
     
  9. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    Ian Riley put the Engine up for sale so you can see his advert with details about its condition at this link here. The website is old but as it hasn't been removed then it probably still applies and potentially is still up for sale if someone approached with a genuine offer.

    http://www.ian-riley.hostingbt.com/id17.html

    I believe there is no tender with it. I think it is unlikely it will be restored any time soon. From what I have read, Tangmere was restored in the 1990s at Bury and being impressed with this was what led to Shaw Savill being acquired. At the time the remains of the loco (well the frames and boiler/smokebox with no door) were sort of dumped on the grass outside the Outlet Shopping centre in Swindon (part of the former works). I recall seeing it many times and the frames and boiler were separate and in unrestored rusty barry condition. I think the Shopping centre put pressure on its then (previous) owner to shift it as it was a bit of an eyesore and was next to the path between the main entrance and car park so this is what led to it being sold. I did read somewhere that the then owner was a Brit living in the USA. The area has since been redeveloped somewhat as is very close to where the new National Trust HQ has since been built.

    I think then after it was acquired Ian Riley later got the chance to buy a second black 5 and this then made Shaw Savill somewhat surplus. This is what it looked like when it was in Swindon circa 2002. I could only find this small picture and I recall it when it was there.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
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  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    How out of date is that website. It even still has 76079 in his ownership.
     
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    I don't know what parts Ian Riley may have accumulated , but I would think the engine is just the boiler/ frames plus what ever he has collected for it, that its not been started, when you think how long he has owned it to me says that Its not regarded as that important to him or his business, true, he tried to sell it, without success, so it's been put to one side, either as a future project, or because no one else wants it , will he one day think, the fives are just not suitable for the majority of our work any more , we need to get 9 underway, who knows, it depends on loadings, and pathing, if it becomes to difficult to path tours at 60 on some routes, then he may decide I need another 75mph, gauge friendly engine, maybe his experience with 60103, and looking after 60009 may make him re-examine his own plans, I have to agree that if 35009 had been available when 60009 failed, its highly likely that that's what would have been hauling not just the last 2 days of the GBX , but the other tours, including the two now postponed southern tours.
     
  12. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    One comment to make is that these days, the majority of work for Ian Riley and associated fleet is The Jacobite. I couldn't see a situation where Shaw Savill is given priority over No. 45407 and 44871 because of this.
     
  13. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    WIBN if someone would take 35009 off IR'S hands in part ex for another black 5./ Jacobite suitable loco...
     
  14. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    The only engine I can think of that might have been suitable would have been a standard 5, but none of them are going to be available any time soon the benefits are very similar to a black 5, but 75mph instead of 60, and designed to be gauge friendly , but then, if 35009 couldn't find a buyer then, will it find a buyer now at the price the owner may want for it.
     
  15. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    There are already plenty of suitable locos for the Jacobite, what is needed more widely is versatile class 8s. Is there a body with resources, expertise and requirement that could take MN9 if the owner is unable to take the project to completion? Somebody with mutually compatible objectives, perhaps?
     
  16. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    'Is there a body with resources, expertise and requirement that could take MN9 if the owner is unable to take the project to completion?'
    That's what im hinting at...
    'The only engine I can think of that might have been suitable would have been a standard 5'
    Even a Black 5 isn't ideal, the Standard 5 is less suitable due to longer wheelbase / bigger wheels, same goes for a B1, or even the Later longer wheelbase/roller bearing black 5.

    There are several possibles for Jacobite motive power ( a double chimney Std 4, an S160 etc) but the Job has been entrusted to NELPEG & IR who not only provide suitable Locomotives but the support to keep them running whilst ' on shed' - a single owner or distant heritage railway might not be able to do this... to this end having access to another Black 5 would suit IR in this respect better than restoring a Merchant.
    Can only think of two organisations who might entertain such a move - 'Icons of Steam' and 'British Enginemen'
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  17. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Riley's operate 3 Black 5s already, only two of which tend to be needed at FW at any time because the K1 is also available. As you rightly observe the Jacobite is splendidly run to a well established routine.
    If MN9 is not likely to be a priority for the present owners as you suggest, it could certainly be an asset to other operators with a vested interest in having suitable and sufficient locos available. There must be scope within the mutual interests of owner, operator and the loco to strike a deal to get it through the works as a contract job effectively? Maybe it wouldn't suit anyone to do so but from the outside it looks like a good plan waiting to happen.
     
  18. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    But who?

    Of the usual players...

    IR seems to have backed away from larger locomotives, see the sale of Tangmere and the understandable concentration on standardisation in the fleet (the go to for class 5's);
    IoS already have 60532 nearing completion and are concentrating on 5029 and 70000 at the moment, the fact that 60019 has been shipped off to long term storage seems to suggest they see no need for another 8P in the fleet for now;
    WCRC now have 1x 8P operational (and doing jolly well), seem to have entered into some manner of agreement (much as suggested) regarding 6201 which brings another online and have 46115 and Tangmere on site if needs be. They have 2x 6P's in the jubilees and also the 8F which is handy and seems to be something of a pet loco, the fact that 44932 seems to have vanished seems to suggest that they have ceded that IR provides the locos required of that size (not sure how close the relationship is but note that the 5's (like Leander) are commonly now seen travelling with WCRC POB's).

    The cupboard is a bit bare at the moment, but that seems to be down to long running overhauls of existings rather than the aspirations not being there?
     
  19. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a good point to further emphasise. It's not that the aspiration to run larger locomotives isn't there, but instead that the length of time taken for overhauls appears to be growing as more regulations are required to be met for running on the mainline. Include issues during ticket which requires large work, and you have a situation that we've experienced for the last 5 years where the pool of locomotives is struggling to meet demand.

    Afterall, how many overhauls have we seen run over their estimated deadline? And then how many locomotives have we seen dogged with issues requiring either early retirement from mainline, or sidelined for long periods at a time?
     
  20. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Hate to say it but 35009's chances of restoration are about the same as (and in direct relation to) a steam enthusiast netting a big lottery win...
     

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