If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

30926

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by gresleyman, Sep 22, 2009.

  1. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    388
    getting back onto the schools class is it just passed for the whitby runs on network rail, or is it passed for all network rail lines ,the reason i ask, is that i can think of a few people in my part of the country would love to see a schools class at the head of the green train back on the old routes it used to run on
     
  2. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    1,107
    Location:
    Oxford
    At the moment, it will be Esk Valley only. There would have to be a large, specific donation to get it passed for general mainline work, and NYMR would have to see a chance to make a bit of cash without impacting their regular services to let it out on charter trains. Much as I'd love to see 926 at Waterloo, Bournemouth, Portsmouth etc, I'm not expecting it any time soon.
     
  3. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    1
    Now that Repton is trackworthy again, the issue of which tracks it is ticketed for is secondary to the issue of cost.

    If 30926 did have a full mainline ticket (and I believe not, in fact), the hirer down south would have to pay mainline costs for any LE/ECS movements as well as the tour. Would a Schools class attract enough people (on board, that is, not lineside) to fill 9 or 10 coaches? This would be necessary to make money. Could this particular Schools even pull 9+1 or 10+1 at mainline speed?

    In the other case, the costs and risks of road haulage have to be considered... but there may be a third way. In this particular case, wouldn't the solution be to take 30926, cold, most or all of the way to a Southern preserved line behind 60007, at a time when the A4 is needed in the London area for a different tour? It would be what the NRM did to get 6229 to York, but at half the cost, or even less if the NYRM and the Gresley Trust do a deal with the hirer.

    That way, your issue would be timing the two events together, rather than cost.
     
  4. 34014

    34014 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Thailand, The Land Of Smiles.
    Never mind about Waterloo, Bournemouth or Portsmouth. What about Kent and Sussex where all the real work with these Loco's for the best part of their lives was done?

    This brings to mind the case of 30777 never coming to Kent either which should also be rectified.

    I know all you 'experts' (well you think you are anyway) will start shouting about costs and giving me 'lessons' about 'He who pays the piper' bla bla will soon be on my back blasting that it can't be done but in the last 30 years a lot of so called 'impossible dreams' have been realised. Much more difficult tasks have been accomplished than just moving a couple of Loco's to a different part of the country to do a bit of work.

    In my opinion any tour in Kent and/or Sussex with a Schools or King Arthur up front would be a sell out so if the Loco' stayed around and did a few runs in the South, it would surely be worthwhile.
     
  5. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    Network Rail will not/cannot gauge 30777 for the Kentish routes at present, this is why it has not run any tours in Kent in the past couple of years.


    A couple of tour promoters did have plans to use the loco. around Kent and Sussex, however these gauging problems scuppered this.
     
  6. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,849
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Although Kent is very restricted clearance-wise as to what can run, some lines in Sussex are not so bad - an A4 ran on the Brighton and West "Coastway" lines last December.
     
  7. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    A king Arthur is much wider over the cylinders than an A4 and this is the area where the problem lies.
     
  8. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wouldn't both 30777 and 30926 be okay for the Dover mainline at least? The line itself had to re-gauged as far as Cheriton so that Eurostars could run over it in their early years. I had first-hand experience of the disruption this caused, as I lived at Paddock Wood at the time.

    Double-heading 7 or 8 Pullmans, perhaps? That would bring in enough revenue!
     
  9. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,688
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    30926 is a good 6 inches narrower than S15 825, which I would expect is very similar to a King Arthur. The S15s are pretty wide, wider than a Manor but as the width is on the cylinders and these are higher set than Manor, Hall etc., it is usually not a great problem.

    30926's width was an issue due to concerns as to the clearance between its frint footsteps (I think) and Grosmont Esk Valley platform. Proved not to be a problem although the test run was undertaken at very low speed while it was checked.
     
  10. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    No, 30777 will not fit down the Dover main line. Platforms in the South East have been raised and widened over the past few years to accommodate the new generation of trains (electrostars etc).

    This means 30777 is just too wide to be gauged for these lines, in fact it is likely to be restricted to mainly ex G.W. lines, i.e. those which can accommodate a "Hall"
     
  11. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    1
    So are N15s wider than the Lord Nelson class? 850 got to Folkestone Harbour without gauging trouble in mid-2007.
    I've looked for exact widths but can't find a website with the answers. Maybe you have them Oakfield.
     
  12. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    Yes! Most two outside cylinder locos are wider over the cylinders than 3 or 4 cylinder locomotives and the N15/S15 classes are very wide over the cylinders.
     
  13. 34014

    34014 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Thailand, The Land Of Smiles.
    Seems incredible that a Schools or King Arthur is wider than a Bulleid, Brittania or A1.

    I must try to find all these measurements somewhere and compare them all.
     
  14. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    incredible as it may seem to you the Arthur is significantly wider then the the three examples you mention. Please bear in mind that is is not only the mean width but the hight, inclination and pitch of the cylinders that affect the issue with regards to gauging. These measurements, these days, are taken from measurements obtained from the actual locomotive rather than the drawing office "General arrangement" drawings which have been know to be "fudged" with regard to exact dimensions (and weights) to produce what the "Civil Engineer" of the day would accept.

    In addition Network Rail do not gauge to one or two specific measurements, rather they view the "Kinetic Envelope" which is ( put very simply) the maximum dimensions the locomotive could reach taking into account its natural movement on its springs, lateral sway etc. etc.

    Gauging is an emotive issue these days. The problem is the "big" railway has altered so many things with regard to platform heights, widths depth of ballast, cant, super elevation and track alignment under bridges (to name a few) that often locos will just not fit where we think they ought. This is not an apology for Network Rail, rather than a simple statement of where we are today.

    Going back to the mid 1980's when we had Clan Line, Duchess of Hamilton, Sir Nigel Gresley, Flying Scotsman and Sir Lamiel operating the "Shakespeare Limited" Sunday Lunch Trains from Marylebone to Stratford -on - Avon
    there were, even then, severe speed restrictions through certain stations en route for Sir Lamiel due to it's width over cylinders which did not apply to any of the other locos in the pool!
     
  15. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    340
    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I've still got to wonder, in this day & age, when everything has to be 'harmonised' to European standards, & so much 'British' rolling stock is manufactured abroad, why gauging changes don't improve NR to the Continental loading gauge instead of creating an even narrower & restrictive system than before?
     
  16. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,839
    Likes Received:
    558
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    ..because the continental loading gauge is significantly larger and would require the rebuilding of nearly every bridge and re-boreing of every tunnel?

    Chris
     
  17. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    340
    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    That's fair enough but why make clearances even smaller?
     
  18. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,688
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That is the usual view, but, in theory, I believe the diffierence in loading gauge between the UK and mainland Europe is not as large as you may think in dimensions - I believe it is as little as 6 1/2 inches difference in centre height (14' 1/2" in Europe against 13' 6" in the UK). The width in Europe is actually about 1' more than in the UK (GW lines are nearer to the European standard at 9' 8" - Europe is 10'), but there is also the issue that much of the UK network is less than the official standard loading gauge! The length of vehicle also affects how wide it can be -the longer the vehicle, the narrow to fit the loading gauge.

    The other issue is that the European loading gauge profile if a different shape from the UK one, although the "full width" height (where the roof or body side starts to curve in) is about the same. One thing you notice about European stock is it is much more likely to be flat sided as it can be wide enough without squeezing every last millimetre out of the loading gauge. I suspect this made vehicle construction simpler for many years, although is possibly less of an issue with modern methods. The cost of new stock in this country is considerably increased by standard European Rolling Stock not being able to be bought straight "off the peg".

    At just 6 1/2" difference in height, you do wonder why double-deck coaches used throughout Europe can't be used here, specially on 3rd-rail lines where capacity tends to be most needed and overhead wires are generally not an issue. Mind you, fitting 2 decks, a few inches under the train and the thickness of two floors and a roof into 14' 1/2" can ionly leave about 6' 6" headroom (or less) on each deck, which would be 6' 3" if reduced for the UK! Disabled Access could be a big issue, although the area over the bogies would be available at each end of each vehicle.

    The issue here is that much of the network is smaller than it in theory should be in many places.

    (Apologies for using Imperial measurements to describe European Loading Gauge!)

    Steven
     
  19. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,806
    Likes Received:
    2,649
    Occupation:
    Ex a lot of things.
    Location:
    Near where the 3 Ridings meet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    (The length of vehicle also affects how wide it can be -the longer the vehicle, the narrow to fit the loading gauge.)

    Technical terms - End Throw and Centre throw or the amount of overhang on the inside or outside of curves by the middle and ends of rolling stock.
    Longer vehicles have greater centre throw in general this can impose restrictions on where they can run if passing traffic is likely to be met such as on tight radius curves.
     
  20. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    388
    do engines that are only passed for the whitby runs have working aws or tpwt fitted, would this be the extra work needed ? if you were to move repton by rail it can always be towed in steam either by another fully certified steam loco on a possitioning run or by deisel and then would not cost the railway much plus there would be the good will such a thing would produce, three cylinder 4-4-0's arnt exactly a daily site on the main line and i am sure that steam dreams or any rail tour operator would be able to make a series of tours in the NYMR off season pay
     

Share This Page