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2999: Lady of Legend

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Ian White, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine New Member

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    Blimey, are you trying to imply that there isn't one single class of steam locomotive which is 'best' at everything? Because I thought the idea was that if you argued for long enough, then eventually, eventually, you'll be able to determine which type of engine is the best. It's almost as if you're saying that the engineering, operational, economic and social considerations are too numerous for any such conclusion to be drawn.
     
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Wainwright H class is clearly the greatest loco ever, at all jobs, for all tasks, by any criteria you choose to judge.

    After that, yes, the engineering, operational, economic and social considerations are too numerous for any such conclusion to be drawn. :)

    Tom
     
  3. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    I've just been looking at my drawings collection, and its clear the dimension between cylinder and valve varied. We should remember that the valve gear operated a rocker which transferred the motion from in between the frames to outside, and the rocker placement could be varies and arms could presumably be lengthened or reduced on the drawing board. By the looks of things the cylinders were lowered relative to the valve chest on outside steam pipe Saints. I think it was the 28s in which cylinder clearance was a special problem, and I don't think they ever had the cylinders lowered.
     
  4. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    In any "slogging" trials at 25 mph, my money would be on the S15 to beat any other 4-6-0 on account of its high adhesive weight and sheer brute strength. Did not someone say that LSWR steel was of higher specific gravity than anyone else's steel?
     
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  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That comment is attributed to Jock Finlayson, the Eastleigh draftsman. Noting that the loco weight of a King Arthur was a ton more than a Castle but had only 3/4 of the tractive effort, supposedly Clayton challenged Finlayson about whether he could get the weight down, to which Finlayson replied that he supposed "the specific gravity of the steel was different at Swindon".

    Tom
     
  6. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    I think that the whole comparison thing was somewhat notional :) Largely for the above reasons.
     
  7. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    Different engineers made different judgements on how many cylinders were wanted.

    It is widely accepted that Churchward was heavily influenced by American practice. The 2-cylinder 4-6-0 seems to have become very popular in Canada and USA towards the end of the 1800s, although I am not sure how many of these were "large-wheeled express" types rather than in the smaller-wheeled "ordinary passenger" or "mixed traffic" category.

    During the 1900-25 period, the 4-6-0 also became widespread in Britain and Continental Europe, but multi-cylinder options for large engines also became popular during the same period. So by around 1925, the development of 2-cylinder large-wheeled express 4-6-0s seems to come to an end. The definition of "large wheels" is of course arbitrary, but let us assume that an "express" 4-6-0 has coupled wheels larger than 6ft 3in (1.90m). By that definition, I can think of only three classes of 2-cylinder express 4-6-0s that were built in large numbers - the GWR Saint (77 engines), the LSWR/SR N15/King Arthur (74 engines) and the smaller inside-cylinder GER/LNER B12 (81 engines). Possibly these were the only numerous classes outside North America?
     
  8. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    bearing in mind the B12 and the Saints were Edwardian designs 6'3" drivers would not have been put on an express loco. the B12 had 6'6" and the Saint 6'8 1/2 ".

    the Arthurs were built 16 years later , and although the concept was excellent , and a sign of things to come were inferior to the Saints until Maunsell rebuilt them , which shows just how good Churchwards design was almost from the off after mods to the prototype had been made .

    while the B12/S69 , was excellent , the inside cyl. concept was a blind alley .

    the future lay in a synthesis of Churchward /Urie ideas . Urie's outside gear and the 6' 0" wheels of the S16 , and Churchwards' boiler and firebox.

    personally I would say the S16/N15 were the 1st truly modern 4-6-0 not forgetting the Rivers ,and it is hard to credit another 15 years passed before the LMS built something similar in large numbers .

    the LNER COULD have had a B1 -or better-in 1923 .
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  9. Penricecastle

    Penricecastle New Member

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    The Saints/Ladies/Courts with the original inside steampipe cylinders were capable of incredible performances. My understanding from reading Michael Rutherford's excellent book "Halls, Granges and Manors at work" is that the later outside steampipe cylinders were not quite as good as those originally fitted to the Saints. The reason being that the original Saint cylinders had an enormous steam chest volume on the inlet side. I assume this is the design of the cylinders manufactured for 2999? The Grange cylinders had a reversion to much enlarged steam chests, hence their enhanced performance. I am not aware that the "bellied out" Grange cylinder design was fitted to the later Halls which followed Grange production, but maybe it was.
    The true performance potential of 2999 will probably never be realised, as there appears to sadly be no intention of main line running, but my view is that the legendary performance of the Saints has to be due to the cylinder design. No other factor can be the cause of the exceptional performances recorded on occasion.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You are forgetting the H15, which predates the N15 by five years - first built 1914; and first example of the Urie concept modern 4-6-0. If the N15 is a Saint equivalent, then the H15 fills the same niche as the Hall.

    Tom
     
  11. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    agreed , an accidental omission , but the H15 should be categorised with the N15 with 6'7" drivers .

    the S15 was , of course a derivative of the H15 ,but I would put it with the LMS class 5 because of the outside gear and 6'0" drivers. in terms of function the Hall can be included - all 3 classes have 2 cyls , 6'0" wheels - but the valve gear sets it apart
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  12. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    there was no need to wait for Chapelon .

    Frank Webb had already demonstrated the value of a large steam volume on the inlet side with the immortal Jumbo's
     
  13. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    Always liked the brutish look of the H15, the front view of the smokebox looked massive - Then I realised why... This must be one of the only British locomotives where the smokebox door isn't concentric with the centreline of the smokebox. Gives the impression of massiveness (to me anyway!)

    Richard.
     
  14. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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  15. Paul42

    Paul42 Member

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    A couple from a visit today
    IMG_4271lr.jpg
    IMG_4216LR.jpg
     
  16. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill New Member

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    Great pictures. Been waiting to see some pics of her fully lined out and she's stunning. Think another Didcot visit may be on the cards for me soon.
     
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  17. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    Does this mean that that all steam locomotive engineering was phantastic,but not all locomotives found their true rails?
     
  18. 8126

    8126 Member

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    Coming to this far too late, but the H15 was the 6'0 variant of the Urie 4-6-0, the S15s had (and have) 5'7" drivers, putting them more in the Grange bracket.

    The H15s were a confusing class with at least three major variants and one oddball. The original parallel boiler H15s were very well received as first introduced, and some writers seem to imply they were the best of the bunch, although the single example of this batch rebuilt with a later taper boiler was apparently also very well thought of. The Drummond 4-6-0 rebuilds used the original boiler shells, and therefore suffered with shallow fireboxes and probably poor airflow to parts of the the grate, so the Southern concentrated them at Salisbury, where the crews had become adept at dealing with them in their original form. Finally the version mostly built under Maunsell, with a taper boiler as per the N15 and S15, were a fine missed opportunity to do an Arthurised H15. Holcroft had one tried one out on Eastern section boat trains, thinking they might do better on the banks than the Arthurs, and was very disappointed.

    I suspect the comparative merits depended partly on what they were being compared against; the original batch were probably very welcome compared to the Drummond 4-6-0s they supplanted on express workings, whereas the later batches suffered in comparison to the Arthurs and later S15s. Conversely, the Urie S15s were apparently well-liked at Feltham throughout their lives for the slow and heavy end of SR freight work.
     
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  19. bleeder4

    bleeder4 New Member

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    2999 being coaled under the coaling stage yesterday (08/06)

    62248489_10156428801388785_5000356966460030976_o.jpg
     
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  20. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine New Member

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    It means that steam locomotives were built to operate trains in a manner that the owning company required, and not built to compete against other steam locomotives.

    I'm sure that it's possible to design the perfect locomotive, but I'm also sure that once built, someone else will be able to design a better one...
     

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