2020 Cumbrian Mountain Expresses

I've been on three of the excellent WCME's in the last two years and have not yet managed a run behind one of the 5XPs. Is there any way of finding out which of the next three trips is most likely to be Jubilee hauled? RTC don't seem to know.

 

So is the return leg from carlisle to 10A 17:19pm stop is to attach a diesel at the rear besides a water stop to drag the empty coaches from man vic to 10A at 19:20pm?

 

No, steam off, diesel on the front at Carnforth.

 

Think ile bail then at preston on the return and get a single ticket from hudds to man vic and a single back to huddersfield via blackburn, not looking good 4 the 1st C.M.E. man vic carlisle return although 35018 is the motive power 4 the day a blast up the long drag and back up shap apart from the op stop at plumpton gds loop.

 

You normally bale out at Bolton don't you?

 

Was hoping for Galatea or the Scot, oh well, at least rear end assistance will be minimal !

 

I think diesel assist in winter, apart from spring summer season is getting the norm nowdays for steamheat and a shove to get us to the next stopping point on time and N.R. tightening up the rules 4 all mainline T.O.C.

 

I'd be surprised if any of the Euston originating WCME's have a diesel included. None to date have that I can think of unless there have been specific problems.

 

That's nonsense. Apart from the first CME from Manchester, virtually all the ex - London ones have been diesel-free. And what "tightening up" are you on about?

 

I think only the one that became the FS test run 6/2/16 (which was rostered originally as the Duchess) had a diesel.

 

That one plus two others:
- 31st March 2012 : 70013 with a Class 37 on the rear. I think there was a problem coach in the rake, removed at Carnforth and the 37 stayed on the back.
- 31st March 2015 : 46115 started some fires going over Shap. Diesel pilot for the return from Carlisle.

Full list of Winter CME's originating from Euston here:
https://settlecarlislesteam.co.uk/s...ess&headboard=&origin=London+Euston&steam_on=

 

Nonsense. You are confusing your rather excitable personal opinions with fact.

JS

 

Yes big al i accept diesel part way has happened before on winter C.M.E. on the return anticlockwise rather than up the west coast mainline cos of the gds loop at hellifield and the and summer C.M.E. from liverpool and manchester only cos 35018 is a 10A loco and i take back what i said about N.R. allowing steam to run on the mainline on the busy timetables sorry big al if i misinterpited anything i said on previous posts on this thread
Davo 56F

 

Correction I only did 1 preston C.M.E. return from euston no diesel on that 35018 up shap on 2nd march. 2019 diesel assist i meant on the man vic carlisle RET C.M.E. 26 jan 2019 when T.P.W.S. failed at bolton and the C.47 hadto go in front of leander

 

Some footage from an old camcorder so quality not up to todays standard, of the W C M E on 30th December 2010 with 44871 & 5690 seen at Scout Green and Aisgill.

 

Bye 'ell, they've got the bit between their teeth. Great stuff, thanks for posting.

 

The First Tail Gunner of 2020

If all goes as it appears the first of the WCMEs will have a diesel on the rear; unlike some I am convinced that the TOCs do not do this just to annoy certain enthusiasts but because it is essential or sensible to do so. Many of these enthusiasts choose not to travel when a diesel is present; their prerogative, but they often miss out on a very good run.

Much though I would prefer there to be no diesel present I still record the performance. I have 2 categories of records; those with a diesel on the back and pure steam. Any pure steam times or speeds I consider suitable to compare with any other pure steam run as recorded by me or another enthusiast. Those with a diesel on the back I regard as merely a record of the day and provide no meaningful information if compared with a pure steam run or another “assisted” run.

The various TOCs can/do operate a tail end diesel in different ways. WCRC has adopted a modus operandi whereby on rising gradients power is applied and the diesel “takes its own weight”. After talking with many of the drivers, this procedure equates to putting the power controller in the “notch 1” position. There are always exceptions; late running, when asked to “get a shift on” by control, poor railhead, poor steaming etc. Here in the NW the “rule” seems to hold. So what are the implications of a diesel “taking its own weight”?

A class 47 weighs around 120T. Several years ago I read somewhere that notch 1 on a 47 corresponds to around 330/350HP. [Try as I might, and I have tried, I can’t rediscover where I read it, book, magazine, internet??? If someone has some more accurate information (especially with a source) I would be more than pleased to receive it and re-crunch the numbers. Any info on a class 37 would also be welcome]. Let’s err on the high side and say, that on notch 1, the 47 produces 330HP at the rail.

So, imagine climbing the 1/100r of the Long Drag, as we pass Selside speed remains constant (as it usually does). If speed is around 35mph then the 47 “takes its own weight” and that of one additional coach; the 11 coach train becomes 10 as far as the steam loco is concerned. If speed settles at around 46mph then the HP produced by the 47 is all required to lift the 47 up the hill; the 47 is truly “taking its own weight” and nothing else. Similarly, coming south over Shap (1/125r), with a steady speed of 41mph the 47 is “pushing” to the tune of just 1 coach and at 57mph the 47 takes only its own weight. In practice speeds are likely to fall somewhere between the lower and upper values; so the 47 will be pushing 1 coach or less; steam is hauling the rest.

Several people reckon that they can assess the output of the 47 from the sound of the exhaust and/or the exhaust plume; I am not one of them. Those attempting such an exercise should do so with caution. First, ETH – a mk1 coach can have up to 22kW of heating load. A 10 coach train will have up to 220kW, let’s say 200kW (equivalent to a generator output of 268HP). The generator is not 100% efficient (typical 90-95%). 92.5% efficiency would mean that the diesel engine crankshaft has to produce 290HP to supply 200kW of heating. A useful point of recognition is that it does so at tick-over revs [thanks Graham]; this is 380rpm for an ETH fitted 47 rather than the more usual 350rpm. So not the full revs of a loco with drive engaged (750rpm) but the fuel racks are open; there will be noise, there will be exhaust.

On notch 1, 330HP at the rail is the output of the traction motors (again these are not 100% efficient); the traction motors are supplied by the main generator (similarly not 100% efficient). Using typical values for dc motors/generators, 330HP at the rail might equate to 385HP at the crankshaft. With the power controller at notch 1 the engine revs will be 750rpm and, with the addition of the ETH load, the engine will be producing around 385+290=675HP – noise, plume!? – you bet!

But, some might say, “We know that the diesel driver advances the power controller beyond notch 1; he wants to push, and afterwards everyone tells us a load of porkies!” Remember, as Abraham Lincoln said, “If you trust you will be disappointed occasionally, but if you mistrust you will be miserable all the time.”

This attempt to understand what may be going on should be considered very much a starting point that will hopefully “flush out” some more accurate information.

This helped Oswald pass a rainy afternoon (Monday) and was completed just now when Mrs W left for a boozy tea with her former work colleagues.