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‘Fellsman’ 2019.

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Cal.N, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Saphos Trains aren't very welcoming to timers. I asked but wasn't allowed to stand in a vestibule from Newport to Llanvihangel Summit on a Welsh Marches Express. In the Mk1 FO non-diner the carriage's centre vestibules have been given over to a high table and power point and are used for the tea and coffee jugs. In any case the tables are too high to see over to milepost. Back to the 10th, great to see what we used to see in the 1980s and 1990s in particular - the charge around Mallerstang to the summit. Frequently used to pick up 4-5mph, sometimes more. With 10A powered trains that's hardly ever seen these days, not even from the Scot and so far, BIL.
     
  2. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

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    Of course for several years we had a diet of Black 5s and 5XPs which can't compete at that level, plus big restrictions at Ormside and I think Waitby when NR were doing the cuttings and more recently one at KS station. The run on 10 July had no restrictions apart from the line speed and nice dry conditions, it all fell just right. But I agree, it would be good to see what BIL and Tornado could do given their heads. Maybe this autumn.
     
  3. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Ironically Tornado's fastest summit speed/time was on the 24th June 2010's Border Raider. 23 mins with a summit speed of 53 with 13 up when there was the long 20 tsr around Helm tunnel. Thundered over the summit that day.
     
  4. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    RTC/WCR train managers much more amenable then is that what you are saying.
    As for picking up speed around Mallerstang, why must they, only the timers might feel disappointed by this, no one else notices.
     
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  5. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    It's rather like the small number of passengers who might feel disappointed by being served a 'product' for dessert in dining rather than something that's home made.

    It takes all sorts and sadly the efforts of the crew on 70000 can only be enjoyed vicariously although the crew will know what they did and sometimes that's for them to savour. :)
     
  6. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

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    Indeed ;) The previous generation from Carlisle messrs Kane, Hodgson, Grierson, McCabe, Brown et al have set the bar out of reach. At the time the owners of the A2, 46229 and 71000 didn't seem to mind their locos being pushed.
     
  7. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    We were on that one - a memorable day for sure.
     
  8. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    So was I but that was when the A1ST was trying to break every record out there. Now they have broken their loco I suspect they are more circumspect and hold back a little.
     
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  9. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    You obviously didn't do the Carlisle to Shap runs this year.
     
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  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    In the eyes of some, 60163 suffers from not being 35028. ;)
     
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  11. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Ah but Tornado is a true thoroughbred whereas Clan is more of a camel :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
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  12. nige757

    nige757 Well-Known Member

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    My shot from the 10th of July was taken in between David's two shot at Aisgill and it was certainly something special.
     
  13. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    The Fellsman of 10 July was special but we must now conclude that no-one on board recorded just how special, or if they did they are not saying. Peter (@30567 post #120) suggested a possible scenario. On a showery Sunday afternoon, with nothing else to do, I decided to look at the run I was on (29 May) to see if there was anything that might be revealing.

    On the 29th May I was seated in the 9th coach; at the Appleby stop I was just before the north end of the platform. I passed MP275 5m 25s after starting from Appleby, Ais Gill Summit board (MP259.75) after 24m 26s and Garsdale SB (MP256.69) after 27m 37s. This gives 19m 01s (av. speed 48.1 mph) for MP275 to Ais Gill and 3m 11s (av. speed 57.6 mph) for Ais Gill to Garsdale. On the day the times on RTT produced 27m for the Appleby – Garsdale section (@30567 post #94). This was against an actual time of 27m 35s and this discrepancy highlights the major uncertainty – how does RTT get the times, if it is manual entry by the signallers then we are in the lap of the gods. If it is from the line side equipment then we might be in with a chance.

    Peter reported that the corresponding RTT time for 10 July was 24m; as the run was faster let’s assume a time of 24m on RTT equates to an actual time of 24m 30s. On the 29 May the run from Ais Gill to Garsdale was very quick and I doubt if it could be improved (within line limits) so let’s say 3m 10s. On the 29 May the run from Appleby to MP275 was 5m 25s (by a driver unfamiliar with the road and getting his first feel for the Brit and after some rain); typical (goodish) times with a Jubilee are around 4m 50/5s. Tony Jones can make ‘em go and I suspect 4m 30s would be achievable, so let’s go with that.

    For Appleby to Garsdale is 24m 30s overall, less 4m 30s (Appleby – MP275), less 3m 10s (Ais Gill – Garsdale) leaves 16m 50s for the 15.25 miles of the “Blue Riband” section. This would require an av. speed of 54.35 mph. Mike Wylie (post #94) calculated around 54 mph on the final half mile to the summit. On 18 May 2018 Graham (@ 1020 Shireman) recorded a time of 16m 54s with 35018; a superlative run.

    A lot of unknowns and assumptions, but with a couple of experienced loco men giving it a good go with an engine at the peak of her powers, I would say – possible and why was I not on it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  14. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Hardly. There is only one A1 and on a regular basis it demonstrates the excellence of the design. By contrast there are rather more MNs around and about with two on the main line. In a drag race between the two I'd probably bet on the MN for the first half a mile but over 10 miles I'd probably bet on the A1. Massive digression. Sorry about that.
     
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  15. Shoddy127

    Shoddy127 Member

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    Hmm, there must have been quite a spritely camel on the Torbay's back in 2018 then? That's before the Devon Banks even come into the equation.....

    Over 10 miles? I'd wager '28 OR '18 anyday!


    Are you bringing No.9 into the conversation now then too?
     
  16. Jontie

    Jontie New Member

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    Brilliant vid'. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I echo John's (60017) thoughts. Thank you very much.
     
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  17. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    The Fellsman 29 May 2019 – 70000 Britannia hauling 9+Gen+POB (The Long Drag & The climb to Ais Gill)

    As the planned run on 27 May 2020 was postponed I decided to take another look at this run to see just how good the climbs were.

    For the northbound run we had Tony Jones at the regulator and Phil Murgatroyd on the shovel assisted by trainee fireman Dave Ward with TI Sean Levell keeping order. Having already watered at Chatburn we made our final passenger stop at Hellifield. This gave us a couple of advantages over the more usual steam hauled excursions over this route; we were starting from the platform line (rather than the loop) and with a well developed fire.

    Tony meant business, as he often does, at Long Preston, after 1¼ miles (of 1/214f), we were up to 48.2 (a good start from the loop would be high 30s). Next there are a couple of minor gradient changes (still downhill) before, 1.85 miles out, the gradient settles at 1/181f . Just beyond this point (2 miles out) we were up to 57.6, still with a full mile of 1/181f and ¼mile of level track to Settle Jn SB and the start of the climb. The line limit is 60mph and the loco was eased, just how much can be illustrated by the fact that we passed the Box at “only” 59.7. With a higher line limit or with a “Dominic Cummings” at the regulator we could easily have reached a speed unsuitable for publication; much nearer to 70 than 60. After the junction 70000 was opened up, and I mean really opened up and we touched 61 just beyond the junction.

    Even in a “sealed” Mk2 coach the noise was terrific; 56.2 through Settle, Helwith Bridge 45.5, Horton in R 48.8, Selside 47.4 with 46.5 at Selside Shaw. Then, around MP246 Tony shut off and the brakes came on in preparation for the 30mph limit at Ribblehead – the silence was deafening. The time from Settle Jn SB to Blea Moor SB of 18m 19s was excellent by any standards. On the climb from Settle Jn to MP245 (just north of Selside) Britannia produced an average of 1800 edhp; on the upper part of the section, from Helwith Bridge to MP245, this increased to an average of 1830.

    So how good a performance was it? Locomotive Panorama Volume II, ES Cox provides some help in the form of graphs of drawbar horsepower plotted against speed data taken from the extensive testing carried out at Rugby. For speeds of 45-50mph 1800 drawbar horsepower would correspond to a curve labelled, One Hour. (The One Hour rating is dictated not by any limitation of the locomotive but by the ability of the fireman to shovel coal. A single fireman was considered able to shovel coal at a rate of 3000lbs/hr continuously or 4000lbs/hr for One Hour. Maintaining a rate of 4000lbs/hr*, by using a second fireman, would allow the loco to sustain this level of output continuously. *Somewhat confusingly this curve is also labelled, "coal 4250lbs/hr". Another curve labelled, Short Term is 200 horsepower higher than the One Hour curve).

    This was a very, very good performance but Britannia was not flat out. The fireman(men) shovelled coal into the firebox at the rate of 4250lbs/hr or 70lbs/minute for the 14 minutes or so of the powered part of the climb and 70000 responded. Cox also states that this level of performance would correspond to full regulator and 35% cut off; I understand that this was almost exactly how the loco was driven. Beyond Helwith Bridge the slight rise in output to around 1830 is most likely due to the slight increase in speed which brought Britannia to her “sweet spot”. (As Frankie Howerd, responding to an imaginary remark from the audience, might have commented, “We know all about your sweet spot dear!” and then an aside, “And so does half the Navy”.) The numbers support just what a fine performance it was from a driver very familiar with the route but with little experience of the loco and who was well supported by the firemen.

    Would/could the return be as good? It was difficult to imagine how it could be better. We left Carlisle with Mike Wylie driving, James Cooper firing and Bob Hart was TI; Keith Murfin was also on the footplate (it was planned that he would drive from Chatburn). Mike produced a textbook run and we stopped in Appleby (for water) 41m 23s after leaving Carlisle. At Appleby there was a change of plan and Keith took over the regulator with Mike acting as route conductor. Despite a hint of rain in the air Britannia was faultless. Appleby to Ais Gill SB took 24m 26s with 47.3mph at the top (up from 43.8mph at MP260 – the climbing summit). The “Blue Riband section” (MP275 – MP259¾) was covered in 19m 01s with an average edhp of around 1570. The last 2 miles to the climbing summit (MP262 – MP260) saw this increase slightly to around 1600. It was an impressive run by a driver who was unfamiliar with the route.

    On both climbs, even in a sealed Mk2 coach, the wonderful staccato music from the chimney was a testament to just how much horsepower was being developed. Was this level of performance just about as good as a Brit can produce???

    [Besides being a stunning route it does link in with my final piece of Wistle family history. My great-great grandfather, William Wistle was born in Dent in the very early part of 1815. He later worked on the railway in Galgate, Preston, Bamber Bridge and Cherry Tree. It was whilst he was living in Cherry Tree that his grandson, and my grandfather, Frank Wistle was born. As a young lad I fondly remember Grandpa Wistle as a very old man and it is through him and William that I can rightly claim that, “I held the hand of a man who held the hand of a man who was alive at the time of The Battle of Waterloo”.]

    Oswald T Wistle c/o Chateau d’If (North)
     
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  18. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    The Fellsman 10 July 2019 – 70000 Britannia hauling 9+Gen+POB (The storming of Ais Gill)

    I started to write this one Friday afternoon a couple of weeks ago when the weather was still hot and sultry, but decided instead to “take the air” in the front garden. I had only been there a couple of minutes when who should wander along but Susan Hendricks. Susan is a flame-haired, slim yet curvaceous, thirty-something divorcee who is a near neighbour and is also very hot and very sultry – and doesn’t she know it! Susan, who calls herself Suzy (that’s not what Mrs W calls her) was wearing the shortest of short, semi-transparent sun dresses, and nothing else, at least that I could make out. I could feel my jaw drop and had some difficulty pronouncing my words; I was in danger of morphing into Cosmo Smallpiece As she spoke Suzy shifted from foot to foot and I caught a brief and tantalising glimpse of her ginger pussy. Suddenly there was a clap of thunder and huge raindrops began to plummet from the sky, Suzy made a dash for home . . . followed by her cat. Ah well, back to business.

    I was booked on the Fellsman planned for 24 June that was postponed. To while away the time, I decided to take a look at last year’s run on the 10th July. This was a run that I didn’t travel on and, as 12 months later no detailed performance figures have emerged, it appears that no “timers” or “GPSers” travelled on the train – much to the disappointment of Mike Wylie who was firing on the southbound run.

    So what do we know: Tony Jones was driving and Mike Wylie firing, the load was 11 coaches, the train stopped in Appleby, timing of SGT’s video indicated a speed of around 53mph approaching the road bridge at Ais Gill and the time from MP275 to MP259¾ was around 16m 50s. (This time was derived from the times recorded on RTT, see #133). What scant information there is indicates that 70000 put in an epic performance. Is 70000 capable of such a performance?

    I decided to look at comparable runs (by other locomotives) where more information might be available.

    The road bridge at Ais Gill is marked 260m 26ch and the former “Hangman’s Bridge” was at 260m 66ch; conveniently a half mile between. Although the bridge was removed (c2009) the abutments remain. [The times and (average) speeds shown below are for this half mile section. The BR times are the times for the Blue Riband section (MP275 to MP259¾)]. The runs I considered were:

    70000 Fellsman (10 July 2020): time 33.5s, speed 53/4mph, BR time 16m 50s [@sgthompson video]
    71000 CME (05 Feb 1994): time 32.5, speed 55mph, BR time 16m 20s [Settlecarlislesteam.co.uk (Austin Whitehead video)]
    35018 CME (12 May 2018): time 33.5s, speed 53/4mph, BR time 16m 53s [@1020 Shireman timings]
    70000 Fellsman (29 May 2019); time 40s, speed 45mph, BR time 19m 01s [@ Oswald T Wistle GPS data]

    The run by 71000 (with 12 coaches) was comfortably the quickest and is in 2nd place on the Blue Riband Merit Table. The run on 29 May was a fine run but I include it only to show how much of an improvement was needed to reach the level of the remaining two trips. The runs of 12 May 2018 and 10 July 2019 are remarkably similar both in terms of overall time and speed at the summit. I decided to look in greater detail at the power requirements for 35018’s run.

    Using Graham’s times, 35018 averaged around 1880edhp for almost 17 minutes as she climbed from MP275 to MP259¾. The final part of the climb; 3 miles of 1/100r from MP263 is particularly interesting. In the first mile speed fell from 57.7 to 55.4mph; a loss of 2.3mph. In the next 2 miles MP262 to MP260 (the climbing summit) speed fell by only 2.4mph (an attrition rate of half that of the previous mile). The average edhp for the final 2 miles rose to a shade under 2100. (I have noted several other runs when Mick Kelly is the driver where, at some point later in a climb, he judges that the loco is in good shape and “opens her up”. Michael Middleton must have had BIL well sorted and Mr K applied more power to make use of the available steam.)

    For a class 7 loco to equal BIL’s performance would require a monumental performance. Whilst there are distinct similarities between the two runs there are some differences. Although both are 11 coach formations a typical CME consist is likely to be slightly heavier than that used by LSL and 35018 is heavier than 70000; when taken together the overall weight of the CME was likely to be around 20T more than the Fellsman, so the Fellsman would require less average power (-50HP). Next, 70000 stopped at Appleby whilst 35018 did not; this allowed 35018 to start the climb (MP275) at 60.2mph. On 29 May 2019 (from a stop at Appleby) 70000 started the climb at 56.5mph; I have little doubt that even from a standing start Tony Jones could have urged the Brit up to 60+mph at MP275. Starting at 56.5mph would slightly increase the overall average power requirements for the whole climb (+35HP). There is no record of the actual overall weights or 70000’s speed at MP275 so no adjustments can be made. Using Graham’s times I calculated the edhps produced by BIL (above), could Britannia realistically be capable of matching them?

    Next step, does the published data support such an exceptional run by a locomotive that is only Class 7 and how near was 70000 to being “flat-out”? I trawled through various books that I owned and managed to acquire a couple more. In 1951 a Britannia, 70005 (John Milton) was put through a series of tests at the Rugby Test Station and this was followed in early 1952 by “road” tests on the S&C. Tests at Rugby were more concerned with efficiency/coal consumption under normal operating conditions and were not designed to determine the maximum output of a locomotive. However, they showed that at 53/4mph a Brit could sustain around 1420 drawbar horsepower continuously and 1780 sustained for at least an hour. The “continuous” and “1 hour” outputs were chosen to match to match the expected rate at which a fireman could shovel coal (3000lbs/hr continuously and 4000lbs/hr for around an hour.) On the road tests two firemen were used; the load was the equivalent of 850 tons and the loco was steamed at a constant rate 20% higher than anything undertaken at Rugby. [The road test was at full regulator and with cut offs typically in the range 45-55% and as high as 59% - that would have been worth seeing and hearing!]. The road tests showed that the drawbar horsepower at 53/4 mph was around 1970 (this was sustainable for at least 45 minutes).

    35018’s average edhp for the climb of 1880 is well within 70000’s capacity; sitting midway between the 1780HP (1 hour rating at Rugby) and the 1970HP (obtained from the road test).

    The power produced by a steam locomotive depends on its ability to boil water and turn the resulting steam into mechanical energy. It is surprising how very similar are Merchant Navy and Britannia locomotives in the critical features that link “coal in” and “power out”. Both were the result of “modern” design, had well-proportioned 250psi boilers, 6ft 2in driving wheels and 11in valves that allowed steam free access in and out of the cylinders. Although the MN has 3 cylinders compared to 2 for the Brit the cylinder volume shows only marginal advantage to the MN (3%). Where they really differ is in the size of the boiler; a MN has a much larger one with a grate area of 48.5 sq ft compared to 42 for a Brit.

    In practice at moderate outputs there would be very little difference between a Brit and a MN in terms of coal burnt versus power out. As the driver demands more power (requiring more steam) the Brit boiler becomes increasingly less efficient. The coal consumption begins to rise disproportionately to the steam produced; a 10% increase in the demand for steam might require the fireman to shovel say 15% more coal but a further increase of 10% in steam may require 20% more coal until eventually a point is reached where even though 2 fireman may shovel like demons the boiler can produce no more steam. On the footplate of the MN the fireman doesn’t experience this same loss in efficiency, he still has plenty of coal to shovel but as the demand for steam increases he shovels less coal than his counterpart on the Brit. Finally, when the Brit really can give no more the MN carries on producing. (Merchants Rule! and Big Al smiles).

    What about 2100 edhp for the last 2 miles? This is only 6% higher than 70005 achieved on road tests and was required for only 2¼ minutes; with a good fire and enough steam and water in the boiler the vast “thermal store” would be able to meet this demand for more power without any increase in the rate of firing. It is difficult to make an accurate estimate of the how much coal Mike Wylie was delivering into 70000’s firebox, probably around 5000lbs/hr, 80+lbs/min or around 1 shovelful every 7-8 seconds for over 16 minutes. Well done that man! Whatever Mike was doing he was making a damn good job of it for as 70000 reached the summit the safety valves lifted (see Steve’s video #76 and Nige’s #81, thanks Kendalinos).

    Is this as good as it gets with a Brit? Almost certainly!

    Captain Tom and I are watching the cricket tomorrow but not together; we are in different bubbles. I share mine with Mrs W and Oswald Jnr – there is no room in ours for Suzy or her pussy. “I did nothing wrong!”
     
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