WHHR - FR What is really going on?

I was in Portmadog the other weekend for the various events and heard much being said about WHHR and FR negotiations. Not understanding a lot of what was being said with stories from each side conflicting each other I decided to have a dig myself.

I found this on another forum. Is this the real reason why the Festiniog will not allow the WHHR access to the Welsh Highland?

From Peter Johnson, he of the books? What I find interesting is the use of the word competitor.

http://www.hilpers.org/697160-fr-whr-negotiations/2#17

13.01.2009, 23:55
Peter Johnson

Re: FR - WHR Negotiations

If you had spent £28 million on a railway I don't think you would be
very keen on the idea of terminating outside a competitor's front
door.

 

I find Peter's use of the word 'competitor' interesting as well

As an armchair member of the WHHR, all I know is that our management want to have face to face talks with the senior FR management and as of today that is all I know.
Sorry my reply is not filled with speculation, but if Chris Dearden will comment, you will have WHHR's Vice Chairman telling you.
As far as I know, Mr Pridaux (sorry if I have spelt the surname wrong), top brass at FR, is on this or any forum to give you the FR position.
Other persons will give you their opinion but unless they are board members of the FR Trust, I would take it with a pinch of salt as so many 'Chinese whispers' abound on this subject.
Unfortunately I only get the WHHR side of the story from Chris when he posts on 'tinternet', maybe Paul Lewin the FR General Manager would be allowed to give the FR side of negotiations.

I now expect to be attacked from various quarters but I try to find the official side rather than ' my mate who has a friend who knows someone who drinks in the same pub as....' type of information.

Ian

 

[-o< Please don't let this turn out like other similar topics which ended up mostly trash.

I think the only way you'll find out the real position is to buy the most recent FR Society Magazine as it contains an article by Mr Prideaux, get WHRLtd. to comment on it and provide any aditional information, then print off the 1998 agreement, and spend ages studying it and comeing to a conclusion.

 

I think enough has been said already by too many people.
I'm for us staying at Gelerts farm and doing our own thing.

 

I really dont think its worth going over all this again. Putting past disagreements to one side, there are significant financial, technical and operational reasons that, with the best will in the world, are not going to allow in the near future the services the WHHR want to operate. Hopefully something will be worked out, but in the meantime both railways have plenty to be getting on with.

Chris

 

I think you are trying to gloss over the situation too much Chris.

It has long been suspected that the competition issue was the real reason for the lack of progress on the WHRP/Fr talks but to have it confirmed in writing by a senior member of the Festiniog oligarchy is dynamite.

So all the tales from various sources about signalling and incompatible stock has just been a smoke screen to hide the real issue. What a bunch of &@5~@$%.

 

correct me if im wrong but is history sort of repeating itself and the WHR is going to be the albatross around the neck of the FR? Abstracting cash from ther FR to the WHR in the form of pinching a goodly few potential passengers.Thi is the rteal problem then?

 

Of course the WHHR is competition, why is this suprising? If enabling the WHHR to operate what they want to could be done at no financial or operational cost to the FR, and the profit from the (theoretical) 'extra' business of a Pont Croesor shuttle went to the FR, then it wouldnt be, but that isn't the case.

Aside from the issue of whether the FR have had to shoulder a significant extra burden having paying for a large amount of the WHHR's commitment to extend to Pont Croesor, it would cost the FR a large amount of money they dont have to enable another company to profit, and possibly extract revenue, from the main WHR line and its services.

This is why both sides need to go back to the drawing board, put past issues and disagreements aside, compromise, and get a new agreement. However, while the whole line is still not even open let alone signalled with ETS or with a loop built at PC there really is no rush. There are so many more important things to be getting on with on both lines at the moment.

Chris

 

Well put Chris.

 

There is a large poster on the WHHR's Porthmadog station (opposite the entrance to the shop) that summarises the situation from their perspective. It makes sombre reading.

 

Are you going to let the cat out of the bag and tell us what the poster states?

Chris

 

Errrr.... no. Simply because I cannot remember all of the details, and I would not wish to make any errors in its reporting. It is quite lengthy and goes into some detail.

Perhaps ChrisD may have the text to hand?

 

He's only a photographer, and not a good one at that!

We seem to be going over the same arguments again. If we, the WHHR, want to use the WHR there is only one way to do it - go to Dinas and become loco crew. Anything else and we are just playing about.

 

I'm not even sure you can do that. The FR have published to their existing volunteers a message that basically says:
- volunteering for the footplate is a slow business
- it takes real commitment (30/40-days-a-year availability)
- there aren't any vacancies at the moment

That should stop the flow of new volunteers quite nicely!

 

Hmm, I thought that was only for the FR, whereas the WHR will welcome new vols?

Whatever happens I'd expect that the WHHR crews will have to be passed out on the WHR route and rule book(or perhaps a section of the route as per NR?) to operate trains beyond P-Y-M, if not then a WHR pilotman will be required?

 

The message that I have starts with, quote: "If anyone asks you how they can start volunteering for the footplate...". No mention is made of FR or WHR, only "footplate".

 

I did have a long post about how this is all a little pathetic but I deleted it as its more trouble then its worth, just to say that perhaps if teh FR/WHR saw the WHHR as an added attraction/benifit to the area they are supposed to serve and not as a competitor, and maybe banged out a deal then whats the beef? If you could change trains at PC, with some wanting to go by heritage train to WHR(P) to look round Gelerts farm, and some staying on for a connection at Harbour for the FR, then surely both benefit. Surely people would do both! I can't help but feel the ADDED motivation to go to both Harbour and the museums at Gelerts Farm would attract people, not discourage them.

I cannot help but feel a little disappointed in the FR's handeling of this whole thing, and as a lowly 21 year old final year University Student, I am discouraged from visitng the FR/WHR by the way they have handled this. I appreciate this is a buiness and the FR have to get back the money they have invested, but the WHHR are actually promoting the heritage aspect of this heritage railway, and that they are being prejudiced because of it.

Good luck to the WHHR, not that my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things

 

I think that is where a lot of the misunderstanding comes from. The FR version of the WHR is not a heritage railway, its a tourist attraction. Any heritage aspects are 'extras' that are tolerated rather than encouraged. And frankly, when you see the scale of the project and the enormous risks it represents (in terms of finance , reputation etc, I don't mean from a safety point of view). you can understand why that is. Perhaps in time when the new line is established and everyone relaxes a little that attitude will change somewhat. But it will never be primarily a heritage operation, how could it be? Even if replicas were built of all the original stock they could never provide the speeds and loadings that are now contemplated. And once the PTB's decided to regard it at a new railway then the structures have mostly had to change out of all recognition too.

As far as the waiting list for 'volunteering for the footplate' is concerned, I expect there are far more people that want to drive than the FR/WHR know what to do with, many of them will probably have experience of driving or firing elsewhere. How about volunteering for drain clearance or hedge bashing instead