New Build Claud Hamilton

You will be relieved this will be my last posting on this topic!

If you want to persuade people to part with their money (likely to be a scarcer commodity for a while than it has been) for a new build then they will need a business plan something like the Tornado people produced (to their credit). In the latter case events have blown things off course a bit but the principal remains. This includes where it is going to run, its likely income generation and funding arrangements for ten year boiler overhauls etc. Even a small newly built narrow gauge loco, I am aware of has the last mstter plumbed into its finances.

My previous remarks about Santa trains were made purely to illustrate that customer perceptions of poor value for money are showing some signs of building up. Heritage railways are no more immune to cost pressures than any other organisations and they have to avoid becoming too expensive for their non-enthusiast core customers. I was once told by the the finance man of a heritage line that he was looking forward to the boiler certificate of a certain "8P" expiring as it burned 8 tons per day! Your "Claude" would not be that hungry but the question is would it be as effective a load hauler (i.e. income earner) as a similarly sized 2-6-0 at heritage railway speeds.

There will be plenty of others at least as awkward as me asking similar questions. If they can be answered satisfactorily then that would be great but exception should not be taken that these questions are being asked. I am really in favour of new builds, especially of medium small machines but remain to be convinced that this is the right project.

P.H.

 

Firstly, what an intriguing idea. As an east anglian, it always struck me as a shame that a Claude didn't make it (along with a J70, more J15s, a J39, a B12, a B17 etc etc) - but I'm a little confused by the choice of the earlier, rather than superheated later, version. Am looking to make it for the Norwich meeting.

And to the "realists" carping at this idea? Don't like it? So don't support it. The fallacy is that there is a finite amount of cash that is dished up to projects, and therefore more projects equals less cash. Whilst this is arguably true in the enthusiast community (and it's probably not even there, as we could probably find £5 a month if it were life and death), it ignores what the A1 Trust have demonstrated in getting the public motivated. If you can get a much broader donation base due to something specific linking the project to a non-railway audience (think the Patriot Trust), then the chances will significantly improve.

Go for it!

 

Even more interesting as you say it will be one of the Royal locos it was one of these that used to haul the oxford to cambridge flyer .Im with you folks cant make the meeting but will watch with interest.

 

I Apologize for putting the dampers on. Best of luck with this project.

 

I agree with you there. If somebody was mad enough to suggest a newbuild GSWR Robert Wightlegg baltic tank, or an LNER exGCR J11, A5 or C14 I would be dipping in my pocket big time, but all the other newbuilds on the cards at the moment, I'm affraid not. They don't pull at my heart strings enough! So that would be "new cash" so to speak, not depriving other newbuilds of anything.
Jim

 

Those are all on my list too Coboman! Once the Aberdare, Jersey Lily and Armstrong 4-4-0 are finished...

I'm not a GE person myself, so won't be donating to the Claud Hamilton project, but I wish it every success. The heart over head discussion when it comes to new builds (or even new builds versus restorations) is an interesting one, but very complicated I think. Perhaps a new thread?

 

When is this meeting?

 

Perhaps it could be called 'Frederick the Great'...
Does THAT Claud Hamilton Nameplate still exist?!?

 

First of all, the meeting in Norwich will be sometime in June, but the dates are not finallised yet. When it is we will announce it here, on our website and in the general railway press. Please remember this is still less than 3 weeks old! The Derby meeting date will be sometime in July or August.

Only one of these engines was named and that was No 1900 "Claud Hamilton" so I dont think there are any surviving nameplates. However I stand to be corrected if anyone knows anything different.

 

Two different locos carried the name 'Claud Hamilton'. The 'Frederick the Great' plates were never carried in service.

Unfortunatly I don't have a pot of money to put into this project but if I had I would, if you see what I mean.

The history of the Clauds is extremely complex and due to the multiple rebuildings its impossible to represent all the stages in their lives without building about 4 examples!

But, I thoroughly support the choice of engine. For primarily heritage line use a D16/2 ('Super Claud') will be quite powerful enough, and the 'full house' piston valve D16/3's were in any case too powerful for their own good. Most of them were withdrawn fairly quickly with cracked frames.

The two Royal Clauds - 8783 and 8787 - in their full pre-war LNER livery were probably the most handsome and famous of the class after 1900 itself. 8783 even had a copper capped chimney - that should get the GW fans on-side

 

It's a great choice, and I'm sure it'll get the support it deserves. But all projects from the outset need good management, and a steady flow of volunteers to support it. Tornado has to some extent shown the way forward to building a new locomotive in the standard gauge world, and it's not a bad model by any means to follow.

But I would urge the group - if the support is there, finding the drawings first, working out a plan of action as to what needs to be re-drawn where and in what manner, before deciding on "lempor exhausts" and "roller bearings" (as good ideas as they are), as you may find that the ideas do not match the reality of the situation.

Not a criticism of a desire to make the locomotive better: simply that deciding on certain re-designs now without having studied the original drawings, may prove problematic in the future.

 

Hi yes we still looking into the designs etc of the locomotive, our suggestions of roller bearings and the like are only ideas. At the moment we are just promoting the idea of a new Claud to see how much interest there would be for it, we dont want to launch into it and find in a year or two down the line (no pun intended) theres not enough support/interest for the project to carry on.

To attend the meetings it will cost around £4. This is only to cover costs so that we are not left out of pocket. ALL surplus money will go to the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway Landslip Appeal. Fund raising for the new build will not begin until we are sure we have the support we need, which is what the talks are to try and ascertain.

 

I love this idea

I've said on here a few times that a Claude Hamilton should be made

1) As said on this thread, City of Truro runs mainline, so maybe a claude could, especailly double headed
The GE mainline run from Liverpool street to Colchester town may be a good run for them

2) Heignst, which I assume would be a bigger build, is being built for heritage only, so I guess they figured it could make money just on heritage lines. I'd guess that a clude would make more money than a standard 6

3) There should be a preserved CH, it was just dumb scrappers that meant there isn't anymore

4) Despite it looking virtually identical to the 2 Britiannias and the Duke, people have made a case for a standard 6. There seems to be enough money for 2 LNER P2s. Even a patriot in ugly conficgation is being made. There must be enough interest for something like a CH

5) A new Claude would show people exactly what British locomotive builders of the early 20th century were great at: resonable sized, fast locomotives with elegant lines

 

I don't see a problom with this plan although I not donating (Standard 3... having said that I haven't renewed my membership although no-one said anything unless I got an email and delated it by acicdent...hang on I gone of point).

There is a disticive lack of ex. LNER (and its predecsers) engines thanks to fact that Barry only had that B1 from that region. So what has been preseved was either saved for the nation, or private purchuses by presevation groups (after a mad scamble) or singlar people (who spent their money on exciting engines).

The Great Eastern Railway area has a number of railways but theres only seven ex. GER engines in presevation, and three of those are National Collection and henceforth likely to remain un-operational. And the North Norfolk Railway are happy to hang on to their engines I surspect!

So a new Claud would very nice to see running on the other lines. The Mid Norfolk and the planed March - Wisbech line would benfit I surspect.

However since there already a ex. GER Lazerus project in the form of the F5 which making slow progress would atention be taken away from that?

 

We've already had that discussion, and I think the general consensus is no. People tend to support the loco type they like, and not support any rebuild project just for the sake of it, unless a supporter of the F5 likes D15s more!

 

yep your right. As Jon Martin shows, were building an ugly Patriot and even if it was the only New build i wouldnt expect him to join. Just as i wouldnt put money towards a loco im not really interested in. I did mention this project to the patriot team and they seemed quite interested as were all steam enthusiasts. And the few people i mentioned it to at the GCR also seemed to like the idea. Im sure if they can get a good team around the project then they could get enough support from the east coast (and im sure the rest of the country). Just think in a few years we may be able to have a gala with just New builds.

 

Please don't go the Lempor route. It may make it more efficient and still look like a Claud but most importantly - in my book anyway - it wouldn't sound like a Claud.

 

R.H.N. Hardy's writings give the impression that a high proportion of "Clauds" were dull steamers which is another reason for my own lack of enthusiasm for the project. Anything which improves the steaming capacity ought to be embraced, especially as a good deal of the improvements can be accomodated within a traditional outline. One railway which has adopted Lempor has equipped its entire front line motive power, so convinced are they of its benefits.

Although I am not saying necessarily, that this is the case with the present thread, I get weary of the "Anglo-Saxon Attitude" towards anything devised by someone else, especially they dratted foreigners!

P.H.

 

Surely it has nothing to do with 'foreigners' and 'anglo-saxons' - it is to do with the originality of the loco design. You could equally put a diesel engine within the original outline but it wouldn't make it a Claud would it?

Keith