High Speed Steam Loco Running

If you can get hold of the book "Railway Reminiscences of Three Continents" by Gerard Vuillet, you will have a fabulous read! You'll have to GOOGLE it and wait for a copy to come onto the market.

Going back to the A4 climbing Stoke comment above.

I'm in a "round robin" e mail group of timers and old steam crews from the SR steam days. Current debate is that a number of the very best steam performances from steam days have been exceeded in the preservation era by locos on the mainline.

None with high speed of course. But some fabulous hill climbing. The one that really stands out to me is 34027 achieving 2589 ihp topping Shap on 4/3/2000. A figure way beyond anything recorded in normal days for the class. And, (from memory only at present), I think that includes what were seen as some superb performances from the class in original form during the loco exchange trials.

Then the Duchess with a transitory 3,600 ihp, the highest ever for UK steam loco. But it is a big 4 cylinder locomotive.

And an A4 up Stoke, this year. 70 mph or fractionally under, depending on your GPS, at the summit on 500 tons. Never recorded in steam days I am told. Bill Hoole and Ted Hailstone included.

Reasons for these superlative performances are varied, but include the superb state of the locos in preservation, (an enormous compliment to the support and maintenance crews), and a really good bunch of loco crews who are allowed to, and who want to show what these locos can really do to a audience who understand and appreciate their work.

Sadly the one that hasn't improved on steam days performances is 35028. It has equalled SR days ihp, (hovering around the magic 3,000 ihp mark), but not bettered it. Because of the policy of the MNLPS, (I am a member), it's use is different from the other big main line express pacifics. It does cause a lot of concern to some ex SR enthusiasts, some of whom no longer support the MNLPS because of this.

I guess I should add that I am not currently timing UK steam. But keep a very close watch on it and am kept right up to speed by my long term friends from former steam days! As an ex SR man I find it so hard to contemplate timing runs on my old patch where there are so many restrictions for steam, and where routes have to be so artificial, (ie so rare to go down the main line from/into Waterloo). That means when a good run does happen, like 35028 to Eastleigh, I miss it! The contrast with what was happening in Germany in the 21st Century until contractual disputes took "my" loco out of service was so different. I was timing runs better and faster than almost anything I timed in the1970s. Including one glorious trip from Kiel to Hamburg Altona, (the correct station from 1970s steam days), where a late start and a clear road saw us do the trip with the three intermediate station stops in a total overall time less than the schedule for a similar train from the 1970s. Wonderful stuff. Fast braking into the station stops. Immediate whistle from the guard and then that lovely three cylinder roar as 012 100-4 got us back up to speed again very quickly. No looping, no waits, no water stops, no signal checks! Just sad it wasn't my turn for footplate ride that evening.

And of course I did get to time that 102 mph run behind 18 201. Something that seems so far away in the UK for the 21st Century.........(can I ask for 60163 to be give a chance.......no I can't I suppose....).

I can post the detailed timing data here for that 102 mph if anyone is interested.

 

A lot of my notebooks went missing after SR steam ended. They went off to help people write books! And haven't come back. But as virtually all the really fast runs had others timing them, I am slowly getting the logs back.

Apart from one special one that I have not been able to to track down until tonight. Only one other timer on it as far as I know and he lost that note book in a house move sometime ago. But I had forgotten I had tabulated some of my fastest Bulleid runs in 1967 and given them to someone who, without me knowing until later, had published them in a club magazine. And tonight I find he had used three of them in a letter to the Railway Magazine in 1968. A copy of which has just been emailed to me!

I always knew I had done an 18 min 22 sec run from Basingstoke to Woking behind 35003 in 1967. And before the 106 mph run with Fred Burridge. But couldn't trace it. And it is such an important run because the worn out 35003 reached 100 mph twice that night. 101 mph at Fleet on level track. Down to 90 mph over mp 31, then 100 mph approaching Brookwood before a signal check.

At present, (still being checked), it seems the only other properly recorded instance in the UK of a steam loco touching 100 mph twice in one run was 60007 on the day it touched 112 mph down Stoke with Bill Hoole, then 100 mph at Tempsford. The SLS special. There have been a couple of very near misses as well. One with Coronation on the LMS return press trip, and one with another MN, 35023 on a special from Waterloo to Salisbury. Plus some instances with A4s of quite long distances at over 100 mph of course. But only actually reaching the ton once.

So Bulleid 35003, "Royal Mail" goes well and truly into the hall of fame. And unless some run we cannot remember turns up, (and the group will be checking hard on that), it could be the only UK steam loco to ever be properly recorded at 100 mph twice on the same run on a normal service train!

Bulleid fans. Hold your heads up high tonight!

And dare I say what nickname 35003 had in those days? Royal Snail, would you believe!

PS. That means the three "ton up runs" I timed behind 35003 in 1967 logged 4 separate 100 mphs. All when the loco was in a pretty bad state. I'll tabulate those and put them here soon.

 

Very intresting suff there Bryan i wish i was on some of those runs \/
its nice to know that Bulleids were one of the fastest machines

 

Now don't you go winding me up on that one again! :-D ;-)

Most of us involved in all those runs felt, (and still do feel), that wheel size, (and the front end as has already been said here), probably would have kept the Merchant Navys down to below 115 mph in any flat out speed attempt on a favourable and long downhill stretch. But they were very capable of getting up to and above 100 mph. And did so on a good number of times. Plus numerous times into the very high 90s.

As said before I do intend to assemble all instances of UK steam loco 100 mphs. That means I have to get and publish the logs as that will be the only means of proving the ton. Someone had a rough go at it some years ago and a figure of circa 70 or maybe less, sticks in my mind. I am fairly certain the MNs will come second to the A4s. There are 7 in Winkworths book and I was either on, or know of at least six more without even giving the matter much thought. So well into double figures already!

 

Is 46229 or 60009 the fastest steam loco in preservation...?

 

Both have achieved very high speed runs. I was on the 60009 run so know what the cab speedo said and what the stop watch brigade recorded and agreed upon. One was slightly higher than the other. Wasn't on the 46229 run so only heard the reports from others.

 

it would be good if we could adjust a merchant back into its original form with proper streamlining and 6'4 or 6'6 wheels

 

You've opened the door for me there!

The fastest is German pacific 18 201, 102mph on 5th May 2002! And on the first of it's two runs it was fractionally under the speed reached by 46229, before braking, as the parallel train, (filming us), inadvertently braked for a temporary speed restriction that didn't in fact apply! So we had to slow for it to catch up.

Sadly still the only 100 mph in the 21st century and in preservation. Just got to hope that a loco like 60163 will one day be given the chance, (because it's new). I just cannot really see any of the obvious other locos ever being given the chance for reasons that I personally am not sure are valid, (age related mainly). Like a Duchess, A4 or MN. All of which could do it with consummate ease, given the chance.

 

I suspect acorb was referring to the UK preservation scene so just out of interest which is the fastest excluding 18 201?

 

Indeed i did mean the UK. Both the locos I mentioned were suspected of hitting the magic figure or just shy, but which got closest and is therefore the fastest loco in UK preservation? I suspect that as and when Tornado is certified for 90mph then this may change but I can't see any other loco getting close in the current climate.

 

According to the footplate inspector on 60009 on the run in question, the cab speedo registered the magic figure at which point he told the driver that the fun was over. The timing community eventually agreed on a figure a couple of mph short of that.

 

And other one you mentioned was I mph less I was told. The reason I knew that at a time when I was only involved with German steam was that the first run of 18 201 reached 96.4 mph. Silly quoting decimals like that, but that is what gps set does to you! Anyway the only other guy timing with me had hoped to at least equal the speed by the Duchess. But we checked our stop watch times and averages and agreed we hadn't done that. It became irrelevant in the afternoon when we got the 102 mph.

I was also told that the circumstances on the Duchess were the same as you have stated for the A4. The speedo giving one figure, but the all telling stop watch and average speed calculations giving the true, and lesser number. No surprise there as steam loco speedos can under/over read by several percent. More than that on occasion.

If, say, Tornado is ever permitted to run up to 100 mph I feel it will be essential to set up a gps readout (that does not impede or impair drivers vision or concentration), so those on the footplate will know for certain when that speed is reached.

For those concerned about this discussion taking place. The high UK speeds were some time ago, and at least that with the Duchess is very well known indeed. I am told it was the retirement run for that driver.

Incidentally my recollection of the 106 mph run with 35003 was that the speedo needle was way past the 100 mph mark. It was pointing more vertically down that this photoshopped one from 35005! I was taking passing times so knew we were over 100mph, but had to wait until Woking to see the full logs with all the stop watch details for the actual maximum. I guess if Fred had eased back when the speedo showed exactly 100 mph the real speed would have been less. But he didn't!



Re the photo. Go on say it, I deserve it, "Way too much time on your hands Bryan!"

 

Regarding 18 201. To what exent do German enthusiasts care about the 100 mph landmark ? To them its about 161 kmh, do they have their own true benchmark speed in kmh to which they measure if a loco is 'fast' or not; 150 kmh perhaps ?

 

They don't really have a bench mark speed!

Timing trains is not a German hobby at all. But when I was in the front coach of steam specials with my German friends they always wanted to know how we were doing. I think they compared the speeds I relayed to them with the max speed rating for the loco we were behind, (German locos have a design speed plate in front of the driver), rather than for any particular benchmark. And I never did manage to convey the full meaning of an "even time" start to stop run to them. Mainly because I usually tried to explain it in Nagels Bar opposite Hamburg Hbf whilst having more than a few biers after a good days travel behind a fast German pacific! Although we would raise our glasses to cheer "another even time run today", mainly in order to empty them and get another round in! Rather than for us to understand what we were celebrating.

 

18 201 - to my mind a 'compromise' loco. Not the greatest boiler design that it is fitted with, and one that is pushed by oil-firing to get its current performance. It really needed an 01.5 boiler but suspect axle loading would preclude that.

 

I've been following this thread for the last few pages, and I'm finding it very interesting indeed. I've heard the rumour that 46229 had a very fast run towards the end of it's last ticket, but I've never really heard any more detail than that; similarly with 60009. Would anybody be able to furnish a bit more information on those two runs? Obviously if it's a sensitive issue I don't want to raise it in public and ruffle feathers, but if anybody could PM me with a few more nuggets of information I'd be fascinated and grateful!
Thanks in advance....

 

The German enthusiasts don't like it at all!

It's not a standard design, doesn't sound right and doesn't look right to them!

NONE of them came to Austria for the 102 mph run.

And none were that interested when I told them what we had done in Austria.

But get together with them in the front coach of a train hauled by 012 100-4 and that all changes.......................