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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    This, and variants of it (basically, 'get out of their hair and let them get on with it, out of the public eye') is something that gets said a fair amount here, but it seems to me that it's precisely that sort of thing that has contributed to leading the WSR to the problematic situation it's in now (not the ORR matter, that doesn't see too major, but the financial situation, which is a big deal). Perhaps a little more sunlight in the past could have helped avoid that.

    I understand that sometimes in business one has to keep one's cards hidden, but I'm not sure how much that applies here - it's a vintage railway, which is by definition almost only a semi-business, and not a highly competitive, fast-moving modern large business field. Personnel issues I can see needing some privacy, but a lot of the rest - no.

    Noel
     
  2. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Very true though be in no doubt it IS a business and as such those in charge are responsible to the shareholders even though don’t expect any monetary reward. All the usual rules and regulations apply to the WSR PLC just like any other limited company. It may be a hobby for most of us but that does not mean the board or employees can treat it as such. This may be seen as tiresome red tape but without limited company status no heritage railway could exist. IMHO we are very lucky to have a regulator that understands the position and cuts us some slack. The ORR could probably been much tougher if they did not have quite a lot of faith in the new Chairman. I get the impression that a number of naysayers have not grasped the need for ALL supporters to do everything they can to get the problems corrected in a reasonable time. But it is a two way process which I keep banging on about the board to keep ALL supporters, be they staff, volunteers or shareholders well informed rather than a small proportion of them. The sad thing is that is quick, easy and cheap to do this. I sincerely believe that this is not an optional extra but an integral part of getting the WSR back to normal running.
     
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  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Repetition of the obvious doesn't make for action though and I would be amazed if anyone of significance hasn't by now grasped the need for a comprehensive response to the matters raised by the ORR.

    As for communication, getting the balance right between little and too much information is really difficult, I would suggest. Even worse is the fact that those who might expect a blow by blow account will be those who will create most steam if that's not what they get...even if it is an unreasonable expectation.

    Personally, now that a general statement has been made, I wouldn't be expecting much until nearer the closure period commences to inform those who need to know exactly what visible action will take place and why.
     
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  4. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Personally, I'm surprised that we have had so much information from the WSR plc. Although probably all of us are looking at the saga with bated breath awaiting the next exciting episode it is not usual for organisations to voluntarily wash their dirty linen in public. I don't recall anything of a similar and forthright nature coming from other railways after incidents, (NYMR, GCR & SDR to name a few) other than a minimal formal statement in response to press enquiries. I certainly don't think it would be normal practice to write to shareholders about such things in any organisation, other than, perhaps, a brief mention in an annual report..
     
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  5. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    That wasn't what I was suggesting. What I was suggesting was that:
    a) The board have been pretty open
    b) They do need time to show progress
    c) Organisations do need to be held to account, but over a sensible timeframe. Hence see what they change prior to new season
    d) It is unreasonable to expect the board (who are volunteers) to both drive the business and communicate more than they are doing. They should focus on driving for a bit, make tangible progress then report.
    e) If you think that a heritage railway is less of a business or that it doesn't operate in a highly competitive, fast changing world, you are much mistaken. IF that were the opinion shared by the WSR board then THAT would be the root of current problems.
     
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  6. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    What I said was "vintage railway, which is by definition almost only a semi-business, and not a highly competitive, fast-moving modern large business field" (emphasis added). Perhaps the wording could have been a bit better, but I was meaning to compare heritage railways with businesses like social media. Yes, the world in which heritage railways operate in is changing fast (H+S rules, etc), but they themselves aren't as dynamic as, say, mobile telephony.

    And they definitely aren't businesses like most others - especially the large ones, with their emphasis on share-holder returns! (A non-concept in the heritage world if there ever was one!) Even with more comparable 'mom and pop' businesses like a small local store, the proprietors expect it to make a profit, not require constant donations to keep it running. There are one or two genuine businesses in the heritage world (e.g. the Dartmouth Steam Railway), but any 'business' with a fund-raising arm is not a 'real' business!

    Probably the best analogy for heritage rail are museums - which heritage rail operations are, in a way. But many (most?) museums are government-owned, not private (as are essentially all the heritage rail operations I can think of).

    Noel
     
  7. 5914

    5914 New Member

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    In various ways I am shareholder in up to 300 listed companies. For my part I am jolly glad that I do not get an e-mail from them every time they have an informal request for improvement from their regulator (or a similar event) - indeed, I don't even get an e-mail from any of them when they have formal action taken against them (which on the balance of probabilities must have happened to at least some of them). Even less would I expect that any of the CEO/COOs would reply to an e-mail - they should be running the company, particularly at a difficult time. Sorry to bring reality of what happens beyond the WSR into play.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Heritage railways are in the leisure industry, which can be pretty competitive. Essentially we are competing for the time (and money) of visitors, against a vast range of other possibilities for them to spend that discretionary time and money.

    Certainly not all - there are museums of international quality not owned by the Government. Somewhere like the Shuttleworth Collection would be a pre-eminent example, and with an ownership / support model (encompassing an owning charitable trust, membership support body and commercial trading subsidiary) not dissimilar to many heritage railways. Even publicly owned museums typically have a membership "friends" group or similar to assist with fund raising and support, along with commercial arms, the Government grant rarely proving anywhere near sufficient for their daily operations.

    As for the WSR - engagement with supporters is important, but I agree with others that those who expect a real time blow-by-blow account from the board about their dealings with the ORR are deluding themselves, both in respect of what the board priorities should be right now, and also what level of information disclosure is reasonable to expect.

    Tom
     
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  9. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Vintage or heritage I am not sure there is any difference. ALL business is fast moving these days. The competition for leisure spend is one of the most intense because the range of alternative options for the leisure pound is extensive. Social media has transformed the way people learn about their leisure options. Other people's opinions count very significantly in a way that wasn't true before. To some extent we are all social media businesses now.

    The regulatory regime is actually very stable. It is perceived that rules are changing quickly, but in reality for the most part it is not that the rules are changing, but that the expectation for the degree and depth of compliance with them increases.

    Museums are a tempting, but poor comparison for a heritage railway. Few heritage railways are museums. Most are in fact a form of theatre. That makes them no worse and I am not running them down, but I wish more railways would pursue the museum status. Most museums conserve their exhibits whereas the specific attraction of a heritage railway is that it is using its exhibits, and thereby causing them to wear out and require renewal which becomes increasingly expensive with age and use.

    Heritage railways exist because the likes of us want them to. We devote our energies and spare time into making them exist, without us they could not be here (at least not in the number and variety). We are all fortunate that to date we have found a section of the public (who have a huge soft spot for railways, especially steam railways) that enjoy participating with us in the theatre we create and are willing to pay for that participation. They pay for our hobby with cash, we pay with time (and often cash too). If we forget that just like every other business we have to continually invest in making our product attractive and communicating why people would want to use that product (using the latest methods available) then like other businesses that lose sight of these matters, we die. We seem continually to forget that if we want to do more, or have more we need to earn more. Very few railways have truly kept their business growth in line with their overhead (fixed and variable). We build evermore elaborate things (ok to some extent investing in the product) without having a good business plan for how these things will be sustained. It is one thing to raise the capital investment needed (appeals for a new extension for example) and often this is popular. It is another matter entirely to pay for the ongoing upkeep with increased traffic resulting from the investment.

    Heritage railways are absolutely businesses and would do well to focus assiduously on profit. Granted that this profit would be entirely re-invested in the business because the shareholder return is a safe, thriving, popular, well run, interesting railway rather than a monetary dividend, but imagine how much better most railways would be if this profit motive were more consciously and dynamically pursued. Pursued with exemplary social responsibility for the interests of its members and for the long term benefit of society as a whole. Rather like John Lewis, Nationwide or the Co-op perhaps.

    A business with a fund-raising arm is simply a business with access to an unconventional source of funding, but not so different to crowd funding a tech start up, just with a less pecuniary motive. We are allowed this unusual status in recognition (by the state) of our contribution to society as a whole. We should jealously guard this privilege, but it doesn't make us less of a business.
     
  10. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

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    Bravo - well said Sir!

    That's Heritage today in a nutshell.
     
  11. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Which was a good part of the reason for my saying they were perhaps "the best analogy for heritage rail" (although now that I think about it, operas and symphonies probably are similar, too).

    Noel
     
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  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed, and complete with prima donnas too...


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  13. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    On point a) The board’s are primarily answerable to the shareholders. The board chose to release the news, in confidence, only to the staff. They only made it public when the confidential statement was made public. That I hardly being and I have seen no apology for this omission. Nor can the very limited statement be seen as open

    On point b) & c) Fair enough but no information has been released with any detail. This is neither an onerous or time consuming task. A monthly update on progress would not overtax the board, or general manager’s abilities.

    On point d) The same applies. It is important to remember that just because the board are volunteers in no way reduces their responsibilities. They are just as responsible as the paid staff. In any case the general manager paid as well as being on the board.

    On point e) Agreed.
     
  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I agree with you that communication could have been better and more full, without incurring materially more cost. However, that’s where I stop.

    The view you articulate of accountability to shareholders is one that isn’t followed by any company that I know of, and would if applied leave managers minimal freedom in which to operate. Accountability is through the AGM, and additional information requirements for shareholders very limited.

    The WSR is nothing without it’s staff, paid and volunteer. It is they that will deliver the changes required as a result of this ORR visit, and they that need to understand the details as it applies to their roles. If those roles are changing, then there may also be good legal reasons why information can’t be broadcast. That is especially so given that the WSR seems to make the average sieve seem leakproof.

    The counter, which I accepted at the beginning, is that shareholders in a preserved railway tend to have a wider role than just financial investment, and bringing them onside is an important part of pulling the railway together. But that also requires shareholders to acknowledge their position and accept its constraints, not seek special privileges.


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  15. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    That's my opinion too.

    Apart from my shares in two railway societies/companies, my only shareholding is in FirstGroup.

    As a shareholder in a major transport Plc, I am entitled to a copy of the annual report and accounts, an invitation to the AGM, and to be notified of share- related alterations (such as a rights issue). I do not get, and certainly would not expect to receive updates regarding the group's operations between annual reports.

    Staff of the group's companies however would be kept abreast of operational developments, safety related alterations etc.

    This is in line with what the WSR appears to have done.
     
  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree wholeheartedly with the 2 posts above, but just on this point - I still don't see why you should demand a monthly update as a mere shareholder (again, I'm not sure if even expect one as a volunteer, just something at the end to tell me what's been achieved) and also, it's still only been a fortnight since the initial announcement, and you're complaining about a lack of a monthly report - after two letters publicly published by the chairman!!??
     
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  17. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    Kindly remember that some of us are 'mere shareholders' because it's the only way that we can support the Railway.

    I would love to be able to volunteer, but a physical incapacity prevents it. However, I am fortunate that I am able to contribute financially.

    It should be borne in mind that a 'mere shareholder' gifting (yes, it is a gift) the sum of £4,000 is the equivalent to the Railway being able to employ an individual on the National Living Wage for 500 hours.

    I greatly admire the volunteers on the WSR and value many of them as friends. What I fail to understand is why some on this forum seem to view us shareholders as 'the enemy within'.

    Stef.
     
  18. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If that was the impression I gave then I am sorry, I didn't mean to. "Mere" was a poor choice of words on my part. Of course I appreciate what shareholders give and am grateful that it allows all that it does. But in the same vein that I wouldn't expect you to want, let alone demand, daily operational notices for staff, in my book, what @Yorkshireman is calling for comes under the same category. It's not that there's any massively important reason not to publish it, but simply that there's no need to.
     
  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    You highlight a key issue with the plc model of fundraising and the way it drives belonging - one that has been debated ad nauseam on various WSR threads. But that doesn’t affect the underlying challenge of how an organisation like the WSR engages with staff and supporters, or the relative importance of the two groups in current circumstances.


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