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West Somerset Railway Operations

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is: it is specifically the likelihood of the flangeless wheels climbing a raised checkrail.

    I recall a discussion elsewhere online in which someone posted original documentation proving that the 9Fs have always been banned from track with raised checkrails, even when they were in normal service; the difference is that in the 1960s raised checkrails were rare whereas nowadays they may be found at most key junctions on the network. Unfortunately I never kept a link to it.
     
  2. Barrie the Beer

    Barrie the Beer Well-Known Member

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    Am I correct in thinking this 9F currently runs with 73050's tender? If so, that's another significant piece of S&D hardware making its WSR debut. Not sure if we'll ever see the engine though. Don't think it ever leaves the Nene Valley.
     
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  3. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    So, in the absence of a proper procedure.............

    I gather that many volunteers - @Robin Moira White springs to mind volunteer on more than one railway

    Now, I dont know exactly how these things work but presumably if you are in a 'safety critical' role and you have an incident on one railway, it might (should?) impact on your ability to work on another line.

    So if as suggested a volunteer driver has an incident on the WSR & is barred from volunteering without 'due process' how might that affect their work on other lines?

    The issue that did arise with gun licensing was that if a gun club withdrew membership, as it might affect a gun owners licence they could be sued for doing it. Could a volunteer sue the WSR if they withdrew their ability to volunteer & it stopped them working on other lines?
     
  4. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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    If there's a risk of a flangeless wheel climbing a raised checkrail, wasn't there an even greater risk of it climbing an unraised checkrail?

    That makes more sense to me.

    (But I think this discussion belongs on a different thread, if only I knew where.)_
     
  5. Roger Thompson

    Roger Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, but as the checkrail is at the same level as the running rail, even if it did it wouldnt lift the flanged wheels up and cause a derailment.

    Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    73050, 73051 and 73052 I think were the only BR 5MT 4-6-0s to have the high sided BR1G tender, specifically
    for their employment on the S&D. Their deployment enabled the LMRegion to acquire the Stanier
    5MTs allocated to Bath, something it had been requesting for some time.

    Before this an 'optimist' ( the LM 43xxx 2-6-0s struggled with ten coaches
    when allocated to Bath post Nationalisation ) had arranged for a SR U and a U1 2-6-0 to
    carry out trials twixt Bournemouth and Bath, culminating with 12 coach trains ( 11.40 ex Bournemouth
    16.25 ex Bath if memory serves me right. ) Not surprisingly neither loco could keep time with 400tons
    plus. Actually for Class 4 locos the U and U1 did very well. The late Geoff Bloxam sampled each,
    Bournemouth to Bath and return to Templecombe, from where he returned back to the South
    East. Geoff's logs were reproduced some years back in the S&DJt Trusts "Pines Express " magazine.
    (I knew Geoff in the distant past and his note books held on the RPS data base are a treasure trove)

    73050-2 were a great success on the S&D, arguably the best ( ie appropriate to the needs ) locos
    that ever worked over the S&D.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019 at 5:10 PM
  7. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    In general Check Rails are of a similar height in relation to the running rail.
    However these are called Raised Checks for a reason, they are significantly higher than the running rail to which they are paired.
    They are only of a short duration though as they are used in Pointwork near the crossings.
    Older layouts such as pre 1990 are not likely to have them fitted it's the newer layouts were the probem occurs.
    This photo illustrates the rail concerned but is on a foreign track system and is not typical of UK practice.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Cast_frog.jpg
     
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  8. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

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    You are quite correct Barrie. The tender still has the bracket for the Whittaker tablet catcher fitted, a reminder of it's S&D origins.

    Peter
     
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  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    I gather that 1-CO-Co-1's (Classes 40/44/45/46) were banned from some areas of Glasgow Central where there were short radius points as there had been derailments attributed to their long wheelbase
     
  10. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    Peter Smith reckons that they were one of the best classes of locos ever built, while David Wardale pointed out that they could deputise for a Merchant Navy and give the fireman an easier job to boot
     
  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

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    Steve I believe that there is another altogether different problem these days with the likes of a 9F on the network and that is the issue of axle counters which are now widely used instead of track circuits. As I understand it, axle counters are activated by the flange of a wheel and are prone to get very confused by a wheel with no flange. These wheels get counted on some occasions and not on others causing a system failure. Therefore flangeless wheels are now prohibited from from the network - or have I got this completely wrong? I'm sure there are those out there who can correct this if I'm talking rubbish, which is not unknown.

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019 at 10:36 PM
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  12. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    It can't climb up if there's nothing to raise it.

    I've dug out the post I thought I'd seen - it was on the RMWeb forum - which shows 9Fs have been banned from raised checkrail pointwork since shortly after they were introduced - it's at
    https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/i...-mainline-ban/&do=findComment&comment=2066055

    Report these posts to the moderators and they can move them to a new thread
     
  13. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    "johnofwessex, post: 2534204, member: 26280"]Peter Smith reckons that they were one of the best classes of locos ever built, while David Wardale pointed out that they could deputise for a Merchant Navy and give the fireman an easier job to boot. (QUOTE))

    Off subject somewhat and I would not presume to question Mr Wardale but;

    On many of the easier Southern timings where Merchant Navy's ran I have
    no doubt a BR 5MT could, and often did maintain schedule on trains
    rostered for Pacific haulage. Also the fireman might well have had a less
    strenerous day.

    However the maximum evaporation rate of a MN boiler was c 1.5 times that
    of the BR 5MT with concomitant power outputs. ( maximum IHPs 3000 for a MN,
    2000 for a 5MT). The best performance by a MN on the long 1/256 up to
    Roundwood that there is a record for is 76mph with 450 tons on the
    'Bournemouth Belle' , the best by a 5MT 57mph with 435 tons on a
    Southampton Waterloo boat train.

    It is unrealistic to suggest that 5MTs could have consistently timed the
    Bournemouth Belle with ten Pullmans plus luggage or the 'ACE' with
    '12', let alone '13 on'. ( Indeed there is no record of such an event )
    The MNs had at least 10% to spare on such workings. ( the SR 85mph
    overall speed limit was always a hindrance, )

    Mr Wardales proposed 5AT was designed to equal, indeed exceed
    an MN power output. ( max design DBHP 2500)

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019 at 10:40 PM
  14. Barrie the Beer

    Barrie the Beer Well-Known Member

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    73096 produced some surprisingly exhilarating runs on the South Western Main Line working for Steam Dreams with the MHR 'Green Train'. I don't have any documentary evidence, just happy memories of the two runs I enjoyed.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

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    You're probably right about this aspect, Peter. You usually are.:)
     
  16. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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  17. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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  18. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    Barrie, on a very wet Saturday morning, waiting for a parcel, ( ( the men sahib is out flower arranging)
    I have been rummaging through ten logs with 73096, one in 1999 to Cardiff when the recorder observed
    loco "tired and klanky", the other nine were in 2003/4, to Exeter or Weymouth, other
    than one on the Canterbury circle. One that stood out was Bournemouth to Soton in
    32 minutes 32 seconds ( the Bournemouth two hour trains were allowed 32 minutes)
    The start was excellent, Sway in 14-48. On all bar one the load was the standard green
    train ie 10/337/360 tons. ( IMHO an ideal load for a 5MT )
    On one occasion 11 for 400 gross was taken to Exeter.

    The best performance on the long 1/256 after Soton was 56 mph at Roundwood
    Suggesting an EDHP of c.1200, controls were at RFO and 45%. A good performance but figures as high
    as 1450-1500 have been recorded, perhaps BP was down a bit.

    On all runs the loco ran up to 75mph where circumstances were favourable apparently easily and
    there were a couple of occasions when a little more was offered. I had intended a day out with
    73096 in 2003/4 period but by the time I got round to it the MHR had ( rightly IMHO) decided
    running a Heritages Railway was their priority, my loss !

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019 at 11:18 AM
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  19. Barrie the Beer

    Barrie the Beer Well-Known Member

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    QUOTE="Maunsell907, post: 2534300, member: 21887"]Barrie, on a very wet Saturday morning, waiting for a parcel, ( ( the men sahib is out flower arranging)
    I have been rummaging through ten logs with 73096, one in 1999 to Cardiff when the recorder observed
    loco "tired and klanky", the other nine were in 2003/4, to Exeter or Weymouth, other
    than one on the Canterbury circle. One that stood out was Bournemouth to Soton in
    32 minutes 32 seconds ( the Bournemouth two hour trains were allowed 32 minutes)
    The start was excellent, Sway in 14-48. On all bar one the load was the standard green
    train ie 10/337/360 tons. ( IMHO an ideal load for a 5MT )
    On one occasion 11 for 400 gross was taken to Exeter.

    The best performance on the long 1/256 after Soton was 56 mph at Roundwood
    Suggesting an EDHP of c.1200, controls were at RFO and 45%. A good performance but figures as high
    as 1450-1500 have been recorded, perhaps BP was down a bit.

    On all runs the loco ran up to 75mph where circumstances were favourable apparently easily and
    there were a couple of occasions when a little more was offered. I had intended a day out with
    73096 in 2003/4 period but by the time I got round to it the MHR had ( rightly IMHO) decided
    running a Heritages Railway was their priority, my loss !

    Michael Rowe[/QUOTE]

    I think it was a 9th July run to Waterloo that sticks in the memory, not sure which year though.
     
  20. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    I think it was a 9th July run to Waterloo that sticks in the memory, not sure which year though.[/QUOTE]

    2003, the run where I quoted 32-32 Bmth Soton and 56 at Roundwood, arguably the best run of the
    nine. The late Brian Dudley Ward driving for part of the day. In the Down direction, first stop (water)
    at Fleet after wending your way through Staines etc. Good acceleration on the 1/330 rise after
    Brookwood to 56 mph. Max on descent past Micheldever 77mph. After Soton followed pattern
    of the semi fasts ie Brockenhurst, all stations to Bournemouth except Hinton Admiral and
    terminated at Poole. On the return as well as the good running to Soton and up to Roundwood
    an average of 74.3 mph over the 18 miles from MPs 46 to 28.

    Fast speeds are not difficult between Basingstoke and Hampton Court Junction. The best
    I recorded on a Soton Waterloo non stop behind a 5MT was with 73037 in 1965.
    84mph on the Local line before Farnborough, and then 81 again after
    crossing to the Through Line after Brookwood. Keith Farr featured the run in
    a Railway Magazine P&P article on the 5MT some years past. I twice timed 5MTs
    attaining 85mph on semi fasts between Basingstoke and Woking.

    I have wandered far from the WSR, sorry folks. 73096 has however been on the WSR

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019 at 7:15 PM
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