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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Aberdare

    Aberdare New Member

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    The WSR has previously considered RO equipment but given the low Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) in the supplied tap water and the continuity of supply which flows from Exmoor hills at both ends of the line the costs of RO equipment would not be worth the extra expenditure. RO is certainly a considerable asset in many areas of the UK.

    The WSR uses a mix of chemicals which is hand dosed on a daily basis for each locomotive. To support this locomotive boiler water samples are taken and tested almost daily from all locomotives in service, dosing is altered as required.

    I am not a chemist but if I remember correctly TDS reaches a maximum of about 2,500 - 3,000 ppm at the end of a washout period. At washout the condition of the boiler internal surfaces is photographically recorded so that any changes can be compared. These photographs are of specific locations for continuity. I show below one such photograph taken of the water side of the firebox tube plate at foundation ring level on 7828 Odney Manor. The copper surface is mostly clean with:-
    • Black patches show historical scale coated in tannin deposits.
    • Darker tan coloured patches are clean copper with light tannin coating.
    • Lighter tan coloured patches are the copper plate after the historical scale has flaked off.
    Do others have similar photographic records of their boiler plate condition?

    Edit - A Manor in typical WSR service will consume approx 100,000 to 110,000 gallons of water in a 28 day period. A Manor boiler contains 1,200 gallons of water so approximately 90 boiler water changes in each 28 day operating period.

    Andy.

    IMG_6432.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2023
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    80064 ran for a few years I believe on the South Devon Railway [Edit: P&DR] in the early 1980s. It then ran for 5 years on the Bluebell from 1986 - 1990 inclusive, covering just under 12,000 miles in those five years. (Very low annual mileage by today's standards, but fairly typical for the time when there was a large number of available engines and a short line).

    In 1993 it returned to the South Devon Railway for a projected overhaul that didn't happen, followed by returning to the Bluebell in 1997. Since then it has been stored under cover for almost all of the intervening 26 years, before leaving for the WSR last month.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2023
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  3. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    It was mainly used on what is now the PDR. It might have had restoration work done on the SDR and possibly some use there. However all photos I have seen of it in action are on the PDR.
     
  4. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    It was to heavy for use at the SDR as Nursery Pool bridge hadn’t been upgraded at the time so all it’s service was at the PDR but the restoration was undertaken at Buckfastleigh.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You might be right. The first overhaul AIUI was at Buckfastleigh.

    Tom
     
  6. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Likewise on the GWSR the most recent locos to get to their 10 year mark have sailed straight past it (with permission from the boiler inspector!)
     
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  7. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    After the crap what happened in 2000 I believe those involved at the SVR became rather interested in Reverse Osmosis, and without sounding big headed, this was a time when the SVR lead the way and others followed… y’know that time when there were people who knew what they were doing at the top?
    (No dig at a certain ex GM who once called their staff ‘a well meaning bunch of amateurs’ btw)
     
  8. Hemerdon

    Hemerdon Member Friend

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  9. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    Trying not to thread drift. Rose tinted glasses can make anything good. Those at the top in previous years had it alot easier than current GMs/ boards.

    Back on the RO subject. I vividly remember the old splash pad at Bridgnorth being a rusty orange colour and slippery. This being the metal from inside the boiler. Nowadays, washouts take place on the main pit and the water coming out, whilst dirty, isnt much different to muddy rain water. The testament to RO water is the condition of tubes and firebox stays/ sides.

    The cost of fitting RO plants and the chemical treatment is expensive but the condition of the boilers at the yearly insurance exams and when the boiler then comes out for overhaul will be less than what they would be without treatment.
     
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  10. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    Andy has answered this wrt TDS in the boiler water i.e. between 2500-3000 ppm TDS. At the
    upper end not surprisingly the tendency to prime obviously increases ( aggravated by
    a full glass or change of gradient ) .Priming in the past in my experience was not unusual
    on locos due for wash out but in recent years rare . Better control and monitoring perhaps ?
    Andy would know better than I.

    Regarding RO: stating the obvious RO does not eliminate a need for chemical treatment, i.e.
    pH correction and maintaining a reserve alkalinity. In an ideal world RO plus in line feed
    water pH correction0n ( NaOH and Na3PO4 addition O2 removal ) all remotely controlled and
    monitored, but it costs.

    My introduction to RO was c.55 years past ( in a Company inter alia building both RO and Electrodyalysis
    plants,) RO for concentrating tomato and fruit juices plus moving into the potable water treatment
    market, primarily in the Middle East.. ( membrane development was still evolving, hollow fibre, tubular etc. )
    Electrodyalysis ( in effect partial demineralisation ) was in competition with multi stage flash distillation.
    We considered at the time that RO would ultimately win over both ED and MSF but AFAIK we never
    envisaged RO treatment becoming so available, user friendly and economically viable in so many
    areas ( including steam locomotive feed water treatment ) !

    However I am firmly of the view that if funds are short, and chemical treatment can deliver the
    goods then for most Heritage Railways there are other financial priorities. If funds allow spend
    it refining the chemical treatment eg on the WSR replace existing batch chemical addition
    regime with in line feed water dosing.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
  11. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Yes it definitely grew into something widely used. In my case I used to have a cleaning company, which I sold on when my mum got Ill (she had Lupus then suffered Kidney failure as a complication) so I could look after her. Part of the business was window cleaning on commercial buildings. Ironically it was WAHD which got us looking at alternatives. Initially we used DI resin which did what we needed which was bring the TDS below 10 ppm (ideally 0) but it was expensive so an RO was the next step using DI for final polish. It was all new to the industry then, commonplace now though.
     
  12. Bail5029

    Bail5029 New Member

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    Hello from the Gala Planning Team! We have a thread in the gala section of NP but for those who stick to this thread... here is a summary of what we have in store (so far!) for our 2024 Spring Steam Spectacular (3rd - 6th May)....

    VISTING LOCOMOTIVES

    • BR ER B1 61306 'Mayflower' Courtesy of LSL & 61306 Ltd
    • LNWR Coal Tank '1054' Courtesy of BLS
    • Further Guest Locomotives to be announced!
    HOME FLEET
    • BR WR 78xx 7828 'Odney Manor'
    • WSR Mogul '9351'
    • BR WR 94xx 9466
    ATTRACTIONS
    • An intensive timetable across 4 days including some evening running on Saturday 4th
    • Up to 8 Locomotives in Service (Usual T&C's of course...)
    • A mix of Express, Local, Stopping & new for 2024, Parcels trains
    • Brake Van rides across the full Minehead Branch aboard our Goods Train.
    • Also returning for 2024 is Shunting Demonstrations.
    • QB Dining Train Catering available alongside our buffet cars & cafe's
    • Kids travel for £1 with a fare paying adult (Sun-Mon Only)
    Do keep an eye on both our social media, & NP event page for updates. We hope to see you in May!
     
  13. Rose Cottage Halt

    Rose Cottage Halt New Member

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    JJP Holdings South West Ltd have acquired pannier tank 6435 and the BR(W) Autocoach 232 from the Bodmin & Wenford Railway.
     
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  14. MAPLE CHRIS

    MAPLE CHRIS Member

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    i do wonder why this loco has been bought cannot be for use on the WSR as they flogged 6412 a few years ago as not deemed suitable for the line perhaps the intention is to hire out to other lines once overhauled
     
  15. William Fletcher

    William Fletcher Member

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    Different ownrship Chris, and Id think that a 64xx and autocoahc will fit very nicely as a low season or star/end of dau train
     
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  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I note the ownership and the overlap with WSR management. Without comment on the merits of the decision to base them at the WSR, the considerations for a private owner choosing to base their property at a railway are different to those of a charity looking at the value of their asset relative to plausible use at the same railway.

    The complicating factor is that the ultimate owner of the stock is also the chair of the railway that they will be based on. This gives obvious potential for conflict of interest.
     
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  17. Fireline

    Fireline Well-Known Member

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    Another engine for him to give up on when something shinier comes along....
     
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  18. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    The next purchase could be the freehold of the WSR itself, if SCC are facing financial. hardship like most other councils, and need to sell assets, and JPP Holdings just happened to have the money, I'm not saying if that's a good thing, or otherwise, but we do live in uncertain times,
     
  19. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    You make an important point. Somerset Council is in a particularly serious financial situation, and seems very likely to be forced into a fire sale of available assets to raise cash. That could include the WSR trackbed freehold that is owned by the Council.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-67938855

    I have no idea whether the "WSR Family" currently has the resources to make a bid for the freehold, and must leave more knowledgeable posters to comment on whether it would be wise to do so. Hopefully, we can at least avoid a repeat of the situation from 10 years ago, when rival (and mutually hostile) freehold bids were made by the WSRA and WSR plc, both eventually rejected by the Council.
     
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  20. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I do not know enough of what the council actually own in land terms, or if there is some requirement to give the railway first refusal. But does anyone know if they could just chose to sell the land off for housing or industrial development?
     

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