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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    So once again, all is not as clear as people thought, Didn't the WSR know about the boiler extension, clearly not, I appreciate that @21B has to remain, careful with what is said between parties, and what agreements might be drawn up over the next 12 months,
    In the light of what we now do know, i would say that provision means nothing at the moment, until the engine's ticket is actually up. Things can and do change.
     
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  2. alexl102

    alexl102 Member

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    FWIW I hope it stays at the MHR. It’s a great engine.
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed. Which is why I refer to the benefit of the doubt, rather than presuming trust
     
  4. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    The boiler extension is good news for the WSR if they carry out the overhaul - more cash, from the MHR steaming fees, in 53808’s overhaul account.
     
  5. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

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    Not necessarily, it depends what the agreement between the WSR and SDRT stated. Did it say all steaming fees from the MHR would go towards the overhaul? Or was it assumed that the boiler ticket would be 10 years, and so WSR committed to pay 80% of the cost for their 8 years of use. In that case any steaming fees beyond 10 years would be cash in SDRT’s pocket.
     
  6. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    I guess it would depend on the terms of the agreement. Putting my contracts hat on it may be a good reason to say that the contract/agreement has now changed as the loco is not available when it was said it would be. Hopefully that is not the case or it has already been analysed.
     
  7. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Whatever happens about the overhaul, the damage to the WSR's reputation may take longer to recover if ever
     
  8. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    When the loco moved to MHR the S&D and WSR agreed that steaming fees from the MHR would go towards the WSR overhaul. See the S&D Trust's 2021 Annual Report pages 3, 4 and 8.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2022
  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    One assumes that the interested parties - i.e. the MHR, S&DRT and WSR will have a handle on this one.

    Until something specific emerges from someone who knows this is all a bit irrelevant, surely?
     
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  10. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    I was not really talking about steaming fees. I know that if I had a contract with one of my suppliers that said we were going to send them a piece of kit for overhaul in November 2022 and then told them it would now be 2023 they would be looking to renegotiate the terms of that contract unless it already said something regarding a flexible date. Of course in the current economic climate it is almost certain that an amount of work starting late 2023 will cost more by x% (choose your own number) than if that work started in 2022.
    My experiences of never ending delays to maintenance schedules in my working life and the knock on effects showed me that however well you think you have everything covered in your contract, there will always be a number of things you have missed. Those things you have missed is where delays and extra costs tend to occur.
     
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    That might be as agreed at the time, but I think we should wait until what the trust decides its position is in November 2023, when the boiler ticket expires, and where 53808's home is going to be, If I am honest, no Railway is going to pay for an overhaul, to be done at their premises, using their staff, without a running agreement in place, A very similar situation recently happened with 34105, the overhaul was stopped because there was concern that a majority shareholder might remove it and take it elsewhere, once the overhaul was done.
     
  12. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    If the loco had stayed on the WSR they’d also have extended the boiler ticket if possible. The document I linked to makes it clear a start date wasn’t set in stone and also indicates the extent of WSR’s spending on the overhaul should be on the basis of their usage since the previous overhaul.
     
  13. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    You have obviously seen the document, I have no right to , I can only go on 41 years of my job experience in an ever changing date driven transport industry.
     
  14. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Everyone has the right - click the link in my earlier post :)
    I’m not discounting your experience either - I bet nobody nowadays, least of all the S&D and the WSR, would enter into the kind of ‘run and then repair’ agreement they perhaps unwisely lumbered themselves with.
     
  15. brennan

    brennan New Member

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    Perhaps I'm in a parallel universe but if anyone cares to shuffle through the reams of posts on the subject of the WSR they may remember that not very long ago the chairman stated that the future of the railway was at stake due to the cost of bringing the track up to an acceptable standard. A figure of £500k annually rings a bell and a recovery fund was started. If you haven't got any decent track then overhauling someone else's engine comes a poor second. We are now , for reasons we all know about, going into some very uncertain times where every penny will be required just to keep the wheels turning.
     
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  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would hope that there would be recognition that meeting freely entered into obligations would be seen as part of what is required to keep the show on the road, and that the £500k is seen as funding over and above that. Ultimately, if it is that poor in its viability, then the "choice" of not honouring a contract may also be terminal if it ends up being enforced.

    However, it has to be acknowledged that WSR has a recent history suggesting limited recognition of the importance of these obligations, which is why I talk about giving them the benefit of the doubt.
     
  17. 21B

    21B Well-Known Member

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    That is not the situation with 34105. The issue is with the cost of the overhaul, the uncertainty of ownership, and the question of who pays.

    Regarding 53808 I suggest that the only relevant matter at present is that if you want to see it operating next season, it will be in Hampshire assuming the recent failure is not indicative of a wider issue. What happens after that requires a lot of discussion and consideration which I doubt very much will be shared in public before an announcement of the outcome
     
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  18. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    I think the general consensus is that SDRT 53808 is rather tired and will try and do the duties provided for it over the Christmas period, then will probably be withdrawn. That was the 'mood music' from the last 'Pines Express' for SDRT members. And Private Information.

    If you look carefully at the SDRT latest accounts, there is mention of a subsidiary 'suspension agreement' with the WSR PLC.

    I don't think it is any secret that Ropley had to undertake a number of repairs to SDRT 7f 53808 when it arrived at the Mid Hants.

    The SDRT accounts set out what the subsisting agreement is with the WSR PLC as to the loco's forthcoming overhaul. This is mirrored with the recent 'provision' in the WSR PLC accounts, which has been an historic provision in it's accounts. (Though we are reminded of what happened with LMS 0-6-0 44422).

    Based on what allegedly Bob Meanley commented on our SDRT loco awhile back privately, it is going to be a very expensive and thorough overhaul required to 53808. Which might take many many years, and the agreement with the SDRT and the WSR PLC expires in 2030.
     
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  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Apologies if it's been mentioned earlier, but how many tickets has the loco worked through in preservation? I think this is the one which was partially sheeted over and looking very sorry for itself when I saw it in the bay platform at Minehead in the mid-1970s
     
  20. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think this it’s 3rd? Don’t think it returned to steam until 1988 89?
     

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