If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Leander's Shovel, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,650
    Likes Received:
    805
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Now that is interesting. How has so much heat been generated in the fractured area of the combination lever?
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    11,246
    Likes Received:
    10,717
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It's a very valid point, though clearly mainline operations, with their myriad compliance conditions, over and above what's to be faced on a heritage line, are undeniably far more fraught with 'potential unforseen situations'.

    From the viewpoint of a loco's owners, although their repair considerations are much the same wherever any incident may occur, out on the big railway there are obviously many more potential levels of interest, costs and consequencies involved.

    The most serious (though thankfully, not the latest) outcome is a scenario which has the potential to end all steam operations on the mainline in toto ..... as in 'that's it, absolutely no steam on the national network ever again', a.k.a 'Game Over' ..... but do recall 'Tangmere's" problems a while back provoked no more (or less) than the sensible and measured response from all parties concerned which we ultimately witnessed ..... as opposed to the hysterical, ill-informed knee-jerk responses from some quaters, let's call them ..... Oh, I dunno .... how does 'the tabloid press' sound? [any additional observations reflecting neither tact nor subtletly mightn't have been deliberately included at this point].

    Given that lot above, I'm as certain as I can be that we can remain quitely optimistic the "current issue" will be resolved in a similarly professional manner.

    As always, cost-benefit will be the ultimate determining factor in what does or doesn't transpire. In terms of mainline charters, regulatory compliance is easily enforced by means of insurance exemption clauses, which is no more than an extension to what already happens to limit liabilities, or, if you prefer, call it "pricing something [in this case, exposure to picking up the tab for a multi-million pound lawsuit] completely out of reach".

    At the same time as not advocating novel systems for the sake of novel systems, i.e. without a clearly defined need and expectation (in a legal, rather than emotional sense), the balance needs to be struck between identifiably useful progress and the sort of mindset which opposed continuous brakes for so long, where the 'crew vigilance' issue was bandied about as a fig leaf for inaction, until even the laissez-faire UK Government recognised something had to be done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
    Graft on likes this.
  3. D6332found

    D6332found Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    154
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Looking like was debris, so good news!
     
  4. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,355
    Likes Received:
    1,275
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh, either you are a bit behind on this or you have some new news ?
    We had just about reached consensus that it was due to a new support crew member called Yuri Geller, last seen vigorously rubbing the combination lever before take off....
     
    Spinner likes this.
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    7,604
    Likes Received:
    4,586
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    I come back to what I said in an earlier post, and including details subsequently released by the A1ST, reiterate :

    1. A mechanical portion has been damaged and separated from its location within the valve gear assembly.

    2. The locomotive was brought to a safe and speedy halt.

    3. The train was subsequently rescued and taken to Peterborough where agreed decisions were enacted.

    4. The A1ST had 60163 taken to the NVR where investigations continue - and from where the A1ST releases details once facts have been identified and confirmed.

    5. Passengers have been contacted with details of compensation and options have been offered.

    6. All parties have been praised for the speed of action and the professionalism of the staff throughout the incident.

    Whilst I agree that this is a discussion forum and acknowledge the lessons to be learned from the procedures followed to minimise the inconvenience, this incident has ramifications beyond the ken of many commentators on this thread hence I suggest that many desist and await factual information. Sometimes LESS is BETTER and it appears to this observer that the A1ST be allowed to continue their processes, confirm their professionalism and prove to the network operators that it has the procedures in hand to compare with any FOC / TOC hence are worthy to continue their operating programme once the fault(s) have been identified and corrected.

    IMHO the discussion so far is mainly one of identifying culpability and offers little in support of the A1ST. Agreed that discussion may be called for once facts are known but I feel that in the current situation postings on this thread may be counter-productive hence I caution the famous words of the late Steve Bochco "Be careful out there" when contributing to the discussions on this thread.
     
    Copper-capped likes this.
  6. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,355
    Likes Received:
    1,275
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    :Wideyed:

    Ehrm, Pleese kan wee 'av ar ball back Mista ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  7. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Rapid repeated bending will generate heat, but that seems excessive for just bending, assuming it really is blueing from heat.

    Yes indeed.
    Nothing that is said on this forum will either aid or prevent A1ST from doing exactly what you say.
    By using the word culpability you seem to imply that the posts on here are critical of the A1ST. I do not recall seeing a single post criticising the A1ST. They have behaved in an exemplary fashion and even provided as much information as they can at this stage. Posts discussing the mode and sequence of failure are based on information available on this thread and so far I haven't seen any suggestion that A1ST are culpable in any way or that they have been anything other than professional.
     
    ghost and ross like this.
  8. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,374
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It looks like the combi lever tried to convince the sticking valve to move, but just ended up getting cycled back and forth in the process. Think paperclip, bend it enough times and it lets go. Same principle here.

    Not excessive. A lot of strain energy to be dissipated there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,650
    Likes Received:
    805
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes, but where did the heat come from?
     
  10. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,374
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Its a natural product of the bending process called Strain energy.
    Atomic bonds in the material being broken. That energy gets released as heat.
     
  11. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Repeated bending will generate heat, the faster the cycle the quicker it will generate the heat, particularly once the plastic limit has been exceeded. That said, if that really is heat blueing, that is more than I would have expected, by a long way.
     
  12. maddog

    maddog New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    69
  13. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    2,618
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I have seen stuff blued from friction, and while bending will generate heat, fracture will occur well before a blueing temperature is reached
     
    Lplus likes this.
  14. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,374
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    I disagree. Categorically.

    upload_2018-4-17_17-24-31.png

    300C is more than achievable due to strain energy.

    Fracture will occur when you are past the UTS. UTS falls with temperature remember.

    Strain energy has heated the part, the UTS has fallen, and then its eventually fatigued out from being repeatedly plasticity deformed.
     
    Bifur01 likes this.
  15. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,355
    Likes Received:
    1,275
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Indeed, Old Uri used to say there was no heat when he rubbed his spoons, but get one and bend it slightly back and forth a few times and then feel the point where theres a bit of give.
    The valves motion will have become stiffer with lack of lube and that stiffness increased rapidly as things got warm, but at 80 miles an hour that's what 5 or 6 cycles per second aint going to take long to get hot. Wont forged steel take a more of this before it breaks anyhow ?
     
  16. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    2,618
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  17. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    6,129
    Likes Received:
    3,506
    Occupation:
    Design Engineer
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Yep take the proverbial paper clip, bend vigorously till it snaps touch at the point it snaps and see how warm its got - not one for the wimps.

    Those that have spent any time in engineering labs even when studying will have seen such heating many times.
     
    DismalChips and W.Williams like this.
  18. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,374
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You think it will fracture without any heat input?

    Maybe an older steel with inclusions/porosity, or even a casting, but this is modern high grade highly malleable steel.

    It will take a LOT of abuse before it lets go, and the longer it takes that repeated bending, the hotter it gets. Its merely a function of work input and work output.

    Its a big ol' lever getting bent 5-6 times per second. That's a huge amount of energy input.

    Don't forget these parts were manufactured to a very bright finish. This makes the bluing even more obvious.
     
  19. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We're not doubting that heating would occur, just surprised that such a high temperature could be achieved prior to breaking.
     
  20. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    2,618
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    West Byfleet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    No, if you read my post i agree that heat will be generated. I am postulating that the piece will fracture before temperature rises sufficiently to blue the steel.
     

Share This Page