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The last BR STANDARD GAUGE passenger locomotive?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by James, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Could it be 35028 or 30053 count as the last BR Standard Gauge passenger locomotives with their work at Woking in 1994/5 just before privatisation?
    Just Sayin…
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2023
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  2. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't the morning commuter train behind 70000, or am I away with the fairies? I do remember that the top brass at Friars Bridge Court were not keen: Peter Field asked why the steam train could get a path that he wanted, but couldn't get!
    Pat
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I would count that as its first run in preservation rather than the last "in service for BR".
     
  4. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    TBH Pat I don’t think so though otherwise I wouldn’t have mentioned 35028. I have a recollection it was Paul Blowfields idea, and being a follower of Southern steam he how do I put this, pulled a few strings, called a few favours in, you know that sort of thing ;);):)
     
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  5. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Strange again. You clearly say you saw the rebuilt SR b/b and w/c in the 1955 book.
     
  6. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Deleted.
     
  7. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    You're all wrong it was York allocated, it said so on the front bufferbeam, 60019 Bittern on the Mancunuan 25/11/67. It was withdrawn afterwards, bringing an end to North Eastern region steam!
    Yours, Gresley fan
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2023
  8. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    If thats the case then yes, despite being used on fitted freights there is no doubt that an A4 is an out and out express passenger Loco.
     
  9. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    How do you define ‘in service’ though?
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    According to the BR database 60019 was withdrawn 5/9/66. ( https://www.brdatabase.info/withdrawals.php ) and bought by Geoff Drury shortly after. It was thus a preserved loco on these railtours and, if we are including these then that will probably bring us up to last weekend and onwards. I think the essence of the original question was what was the last BR passenger locomotive in service prior to 11/8/68.
     
  11. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    Yes 60019 technically withdrawn lol.
    Interesting how they made it a York loco though.
     
  12. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Does the rebuilt Merchant navy class count as a standard class, they did have the look of an standard loco about them, the running plate, the smoke deflectors, the rebuilt tender bodies looked more out of a riddles design than bullied, in fact Jarvis did say part of his remit on the rebuild was to give the engines an outward standard looking image.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The original question to this thread (amended) was:

    So we need to establish what counts as "running in service for BR".

    If we define it as being at the time of the train pulled:
    • Owned by BR
    • Running a service train on behalf of BR
    Then that rules out anything where it is privately owned and running railtours.

    Then we need to establish whether we are excluding certain types of locomotives from the equation. The question states "passenger steam locomotive".

    If we define this as being:
    • Specifically designed for passenger trains - likely express passenger trains
    • Owned by BR
    Then that rules out virtually everything that was defined as mixed traffic, including but not limited to Merchant Navy Class, BoB/WC, all the LNER A2 variants, the Britannias and more

    But I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for excluding mixed traffic locomotives. By their very definition, they can work passenger services, and most did virtually identical work to the "express passenger" locomotives. Are we saying a Peppercorn A2, to be found on the Aberdonian, wasn't an express passenger locomotive?

    If our only defining factors are whether we consider them to be have been designed for primarily passenger roles, we're also ignoring that all of the 8Ps at one time or another were to be found on the following sort of train:

    [​IMG]

    In short, I'm not sure what the point of the question is. Why does it matter? You would hardly say that the Britannias were not, in fact, passenger locomotives.

    [​IMG]

    For me it seems simple. 1T57 is probably the answer. The fairly arbitrary locomotive power classifications be damned.
     
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  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    There is an interesting dimension, that the question doesn't properly address, about how the withdrawal programme operated in the final years of steam, and therefore how the different types were pulled from traffic as usage fell as dieselisation progressed. I find it interesting that there's commemoration of the A4s on the Aberdeen run, or the Bulleids on the Bournemouth line, as markers of the end of steam, but the primary images of passenger steam in 1968 that come to mind are either Black 5s on passenger duties, or Britannias on railtours.

    It's probably been done, but enriching that picture to understand what went where and when might be interesting - and the big passenger locomotives do provide an interesting view of that.
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not quite the end, but an honourable mention must go to the Adams O2s on the Isle of Wight, which lasted until 31/12/1966 and definitively were classified as just passenger locos! ;)

    W14, W17, W27, W28 were in action that day.

    Tom
     
  16. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    W24 and W31 were not withdrawn until March 1967 being utilised on engineering
    duties etc; although perhaps it could be argued that as they finished passenger duties
    at the end of 1966 this does not count.

    Michael Rowe
     
  17. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Only one Britannia in 1968, 70013.
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That sort of makes my point - was 70013 kept as a railtour engine, or for real traffic purposes?
     
  19. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    I think the answer to “ how the withdrawal programme operated in the final years of steam”, is randomly.

    In Germany and France an apparently measured withdrawal timetable prevailed. Whilst they ceased building
    new steam locos earlier than in the UK they ran steam for longer. The apparent rush to dieselisation ( if there
    is such a word ) post the 1955 modernisation plan with hindsight seems to have been extremely wasteful.

    Perfectly serviceable locos were withdrawn ( the Southern Region was still overhauling K class 2-6-0s mid
    1962 and then withdrew the whole Class year end, apparently at the behest of accountants ). Similarly
    the last light Pacific to be rebuilt left Eastleigh mid 1961. ( presumably the Southern thought that post
    the Bournemouth electrification they would still require steam west of Basingstoke. In practice the
    subsequent reorganisation led to Salisbury Exeter transfer to the WR, track singling etc.)

    On the Eastern Region it was only due to one strong man ( Jerry Fiennes ) that the Eastern steam
    fleet actually had a successor offering faster schedules ( i.e the Deltics )

    What is noticeable are some local decisions to utilise potentially redundant steam eg A4s Glasgow
    Aberdeen. ( the cynic could say that the lack of adequate diesel power was then overcome by
    closing the route in 1967 ), the small Leeds based Jubilee fleet nursed to overcome a shortage in 1967 etc,

    I note your reference to 1968. I think 1967 should perhaps be recorded as the valedictory to LM
    steam passenger working ( I appreciate there were workings in 1968 between Liverpool or
    Manchester and Preston , plus the boat train to Morecombe ) when there were workings between
    Crewe and Carlisle featuring Brittanias and the ubiquitous Stanier 5MTs plus the standard
    derivative and some workings into Scotland.

    ( As a personal note I observed 91mph behind a 5 coming south on a Carlisle Preston non stop working
    in August 1967 and 87mph between Lockerbie and Beattock on the 8.25pm Carlisle Perth earlier in the
    year, ( a lightweight train, Brittania hauled for the first few months of the year ).

    I have ‘rambled’ but that is how the run down of steam and the transfer to diesels was. Whilst there
    were some apparently planned changeovers, particularly where electrification was involved eg
    Euston to Manchester and Liverpool, the various SR third rail projects etc the concept of not just
    reducing costs but offering a better faster service appeared to be lacking.

    Mr Fiennes for writing about it was dismissed .

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2023
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  20. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Fact check. : 60019 was operated on a rail tour from Aberdeen to Kings Cross in early September 1966 (September 4?) when it worked the Edinburgh - York leg when it replaced 60024 Kingfisher and - in turn - was replaced by D1511 at York. The following day it was used by York on a trip working to Healey Mills whereupon on return to York the loco was bought by Geoff Drury who signed the transfer documents on the footplate of 60019. At that tIme it therefore became withdrawn within the BR stats.

    How do I know this ? I was one of the passengers who joined the tour at Edinburgh for the southbound journey and any journey on BR after September was under the ownership of Geoff Drury - NOT BR !
     

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