SVR General Discussion

But isn’t this Steve’s point? If the SVR shares the causes etc of the accident, other railways can use it as an example for their own training.

 

Please remember there are regular networking events and conversations between all the heritage railways both at GM level and H&S manager level which include the ORR. We dont live in a bubble anymore. Any information will surely be passed on at these.

 

It isn't down to the railway to disseminate the learning points it's down to the ORR - & as the press release states, heritage railways are under the microscope and this was the latest in a number of incidents for which the ORR have been in contact with heritage railway leaders about. The ORR will issue regular safety bulletins recommending best practice as well as any learning from this incident - it is up to railway H&S officers to keep abreast of these and implement to their own situations.
The railway will have already had a number of learning points which have by the sound of it been implemented.
However, the first rule of Health and Safety is that it starts with the individual - ie you and me.

 

However, the first rule of Health and Safety is that it starts with the individual - Sorry wrong. The fault ALWAYS stays with the employer or the "controlling mind", no matter how irresponsible the actions of the employee. The accident has happened therefore the employers arrangements for managing safety, by definition, have been inadequate. Try reading some H & S case law. Under the HASAW act the employer is presumed guilty unless proven innocent, the opposite of normal criminal law.

 

Employee health and safety responsibilities
According to HSE: “workers have a duty to take care of their own health and safety and that of others who may be affected by [their] actions at work.” Therefore, employees share some workplace health and safety responsibilities with their employer. They must cooperate with their employer and co-workers to help everyone meet their legal requirements and stay safe in the workplace.

 

Thank you.

I have had enough H&S training drilled into me over the years to know that everything falls apart if individuals don't take responsibility for their actions. We all have a responsibility to use the safety equipment & training provided and also to report anything we feel is unsafe. When you receive training or an induction, you will sign an agreement to use that knowledge. It is this paper trail that is crucial in any future incident, if you are found not to have followed that training the onus suddenly falls on the individual.
Employers have a duty to provide that equipment and training as well as a safe and appropriate environment to complete that task, but it is all useless if someone ignores all those safe systems of work.
We had a recent incident at work where someone broke into a building site, climbed over safety fencing and up several layers of scaffold to put a bar stool on top of the roof that is being worked on. A photo then appeared on social media of the 'triumph'. The site manager was worried that he would be found liable for a lapse in security and putting public in danger. The H&S investigation concluded however the site owner had made every reasonable effort to prevent such an occurrence and keep public out. How do you prevent someone breaking in, ignoring safety signage, scaling safety fencing and acting like spiderman for a photo op? The answer is you can't, employers can not design out stupidity, but they do need to demonstrate that they have made every effort to make the situation as safe as possible. This is where the SVR have fallen short in this instance.

 

As you say those responsible have a duty to make things as safe as possible and employees have a duty to do things as safely as possible. However, that latter obligation does not extend to volunteers, who are outside the H&S@WA and cannot be prosecuted under it. That doesn’t mean that an organisation can allow a volunteer to do something stupid, though, and must provide safe systems of work and ensure that a volunteer abides by it.

 

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect.

The HASAWA absolutely has provision for volunteers written in.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/voluntary/em... and Safety at,on behalf of your organisation.

Chris

 

That is most certainly not the case. The Act covers all people working, paid or otherwise.

 

Sorry, but I’m right. The ‘employer’ has a duty to employees, volunteers and, indeed, everyone but the volunteer has no duty under the H&S@WA because he is not at work under the the definition of work within the Act. The employer must provide a safe system of work for the volunteer and should ensure he uses it but, if the volunteer doesn’t do so he has not broken the law, unlike an employee. The ORR acknowledges that they cannot prosecute a volunteer under the Act.

 

This debate, however wrong or right is drifting off thread and becoming unnecessary. The Railway has been fined, it has learnt a strong lesson, it has made several improvements since then, and what it has been able to share it has done with other railways managment. That should really be all there is to it.

 

A perfect sumary of the legal position under the Health and Safety at Work Act. While they have no duty under the Act volunteers still have a common law duty of care to others so, while they cannot be prosecuted, they could still be sued if they were in breach of that duty.

 

I'm not sure it's just railways. In a different volunteering context, the "doing it properly gets in the way" conversation also comes up. That can be H&S, it can be lone working, it can (God help us) be about safeguarding.

And I know that, in my volunteering, I don't always have my "professional" head on - meaning I do sometimes act differently. I don't work in an environment where H&S is a routine factor, so the "drilling in" referred to by @acorb is not there - and shouldn't be assumed to be.

What matters here - or in the other high profile H&S incidents - is not the legal consequences or the bills for the railway, but the lessons learned. And those lessons learned do need dissemination, with periodic reminders.

A final observation - it's not just about volunteering. A few years ago, two track workers were struck and killed at Margam (https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-11-2020-track-workers-struck-by-a-train-at-margam). Reading the RAIB report, I was struck by the way that they had not absorbed changes in working practice that would have saved their lives. The report gives reasons for that; my conclusion is that it is important for both "employer" and "worker" to keep interested in what is good working practice.

 

Two factors in heritage railways (generally) that are relevant:
1. They are under managed often. That is to say there are too few people to do the amount of
Management required.
2. Most volunteers come from jobs with no practical skill set. That is that people don’t work with their hands doing physical engineering jobs very much. Te experience of working in a factory or construction site or similar is limited to their volunteering. They don’t (anymore?) come with some of the skills already in place.

 

Attitudes like this make me despair. Safety isn't a private matter. It's something that needs to be at the forefront of everybody's mind involved in the enterprise, irrespective of role or organisation. It needs to be discussed constantly, and before any work of any sort is done, a careful assessment of the right way to do it needs to be made. And mistakes need to be highlighted and shared publicly for others to learn from. If you think you need to keep it quiet, you're a significant part of the problem. Why isn't there a permathread about safety, as there are for "Thefts and Vandalism" and, for holy Moses' sake, gradients?

You'll see the amateur attitude displayed every time a magazine shows, say, a track gang working on a live line in steam days... "and not a hi-vis jacket in sight" appended almost automatically to the caption.

The line, already probably strapped for cash, is now almost £90000 down, for the sake of a few hours, or even minutes, of intelligent thought. The safety inspectorate is getting annoyed by the cowboy attitudes that cause these completely avoidable accidents. The next incident could end up with a million pound fine, and the end of the fun.

 

You can take umbrage at my comment however you feel but that is the postion the company has told us to take. The company and ORR will distribute information as and when they see fit. As a member of the railways safety committee, who also works within the carriage and wagon dept and knows the IP. I have had personal dealings with the fallout from the incident.

Whatever learnings they are from this. May not apply to other railways as each site is different and it is upto the railway to produce RAMS and working practices to suit.

 

They also need reporting and sharing in the right way, so the lessons shared are actually useful and applicable.


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