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Spring/Summer 2018 CMEs

Discussion in 'What's Going on' started by 1020 Shireman, May 9, 2018.

  1. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I have no expectations, I am simply expressing an opinion as to what, from a trading point of view would be the best way to treat customers. If this is in fact happening out of view, great.
     
  2. gricerdon

    gricerdon New Member

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    In my view good if this is the winter path
     
  3. gricerdon

    gricerdon New Member

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    Except they used the DL on the back to push on one of their trips, which they specifically said their blurb would not happen, so they are on my black list
     
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  4. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Not only on one Don. Both Marches trains and the first English Riviera Express were seriously shoved before the fire risk cut in.
     
  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    The only commendable part is the openness about having a diesel in the consist. Once its there it is a forlorn hope to believe it will not provide a shove, but those to whom that matters can make an informed judgement on that probability because the promoter has given them the basis to do so. That, in a nutshell, is how it should always be emergencies notwithstanding.
     
  6. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Member

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    I think Peter is correct and that you may have a " rose tinted view" of what the trading conditions are in any market.
    This applies to West End London Theatre bookings which often cost more than a ticket on a steam tour and certainly are a far shorter elapsed time. To me an understudy would at least equate to diesel assisting steam.

    "You will be entitled to claim a refund from Us in accordance with this clause. A ‘material’ change is a change which, in Our reasonable opinion, makes the Event materially different to the Event that purchasers of the Ticket, taken generally, could reasonably expect. The use of understudies in a theatre performance shall not be a material change. Where an outdoor Event is cancelled or curtailed because of adverse weather, We shall not be liable to make any refund or pay any compensation beyond the refunds that may be payable under the Venue’s or Promoter’s rules".

    I am afraid that some of what I guess you regard as minimum consumer protection I do not buy in to. For example the stupid idea that delay repay is payable after 15 minutes on certain TOC's when you do not even have a reservation for a particular train. I could sit at home, look at RTT, see which train is 15 minutes late pop down to the station and get half my money back rather than just go to the station and travel. All that does ultimately is lead to high prices for everyone. If the Charter industry went with your view of endless refunds we would either have a £200 standard class fare for any railtour, or no operators left in business, and who does that benefit, certainly not the likes of us on here, or "Joe Public" who want a nice day out.
     
  7. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I may have an idealistic view of what basis tickets are sold but it extends no further than customers having choice, information and options underpinning their purchases.
    I agree there is a decent analogy with the theatre tickets but I do not believe terms and conditions you quote are actually wholly compliant themselves with the Consumer Rights Act 2015, were they to be tested. Basically, a buisness cannot pass on the forseeable risks of events which may affect the provision of service to the customer by discaliming their statutory rights as a condition of purchase. I do also understand that many think heritage charters should be exempt or given special concessions to account for their unique basis and clientele. My view is the opposite because clientele and their expectations have an unfortunate habit of changing so the 'industry' needs to be geared up to thrive with that evolution.
    As has been mentioned before, reputable businesses carry business interruption insurance for matters beyond their control that results in loss of income etc. This, then, seems to me a promoter decision to run the train having been told by the TOC of the prevailing constraints. What is abundantly clear from the present position is that the strategy seems to be "provide a show pony rather than a [partial] refund" - why not simply make the offer in advance? Apologies if this is what is happening but there seems to be conflicting reports over the advance information.
     
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  8. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Member

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    I would disagree as the Consumer Rights Act 2015 Para 50 subsection 3 refers you to the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which in turn in which lists a whole raft of things that a supplier can and can not do.
    I would suggest if you feel that the provision of a show pony, diesel shoving or the terms and conditions of the tour operators are illegal then buy a ticket and challenge it in the courts. And as someone who has just has his company pension shafted by an Appeal Court ruling good luck with that and I hope you have plenty of money. But we drift off topic.
     
  9. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Which is the refuge the debaters of this topic always resort to - "take em to court"!!!
    All I have consistently said essentially is that being "upfront" with customers, being amenable to potential sources of dissatisfaction and generally avoiding putting profit ahead of people pay far greater dividends in the long run. This may in fact be happening but there seems to be some commentary which suggests not. All I read from a few posters on here though is excuses or reasons why businesses might be justified in doing otherwise.
    As an example or two of the absence of clear current status info:
    Check out yesterday's @railwaytouring’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/railwaytouring/status/1016219225176887296?s=09
    https://twitter.com/railwaytouring/status/1015173545113026560?s=09

    http://www.railwaytouring.net/uk-day-trips/the-cumbrian-mountain-express-5
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  10. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Oh joy. The ticket letter came for Saturday. The 'oh by the way there's no proper steam haulage' is left to the end after first of all saying the train will be steam hauled from Carlisle to Farington Jn.... rubbish or what?

    The Cumbrian Mountain Express : Saturday, 14 July 2018

    London Euston, Watford Junction*, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton**, Rugby, Nuneaton,
    Crewe and Preston*** to Carlisle and return.

    Please be advised that due to the current dry weather conditions this train will now be hauled by
    vintage electric no 86259 Les Ross from London Euston to Carlisle as steam is currently prohibited
    in many areas of the UK including the West Coast Main Line, due to the high fire risk. We will then be
    steam hauled by either 45699 Galatea or 45690 Leander from Carlisle to Farington Jn on our return
    via the Settle and Carlisle line. We shall be hauled by no 86259 Les Ross electric locomotive from
    Farington Jn to London Euston.

    *As there is no stop on the outward journey at Watford Junction we have arranged for Watford
    Junction passengers to travel to Milton Keynes Central and join the Cumbrian Mountain Express
    there. You will need to show this ticket at the barrier to gain access to the service train. The time
    for this service train is shown overleaf. There will be a stop at Watford Junction on the return
    journey.

    **All Northampton passengers should travel to Rugby to join our train. Please show this ticket at
    the ticket barrier for access onto the service train. The service train timings for this service can be
    found on the reverse of this letter.**

    *** Preston passengers will need to return to Preston via service train from Blackburn on the return
    journey. Service train tickets for this section will be provided on the day and the timings for this
    service are shown overleaf.

    Please note due to the current weather conditions this train will be diesel assisted from Carlisle
    over the Settle and Carlisle line at the request of our operating company and Network Rail.
     
  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Active Member Friend

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    Seems to me that it tells you what you need to know - what's wrong with that?

    Peter
     
  12. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Just that the end should be at the beginning as the letter starts with "Please be advised that due to the current dry weather conditions... especially as the 1st paragraph went on: We will then be steam hauled by either 45699 Galatea or 45690 Leander from Carlisle to Farington Jn on our return via the Settle and Carlisle line...Hopes raised .... then dashed by the last bit. Don't forget Peter lots of customers probably know nothing about the steam ban and expect proper steam haulage for their money.

    Perhaps it's me.
     
  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    How about ...
    "we are very sorry to have to inform you that due to the dry conditions some extra precautions required by Network Rail mean that electric traction will take the train all the way to Carlisle outbound. A steam loco will be at the head of the return leg but a diesel is needed to assist so that the fire risk is mitigated. We understand that this will naturally be disappointing to many of our customers and in recognition of this we would like to offer you a partial refund or a discount on a future RTC trip. Details of how to request either mode of compensation are included herewith.
    We look forward to seeing you on board and hope your day out with RTC is a memorable one."
     
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  14. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

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    Excellent. They should hire you as Head of Letter Writing.
     
  15. torgormaig

    torgormaig Active Member Friend

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    I think it is - just you. This weather situation is very fluid and can change in a day or two. It was clearly hope that it would be steam hauled by the time the weekend arrived, but this has proved to be unlikely now. It is much easier to add to the origional draft than rewrite the whole thing ( its not as if RTC do not have enough on their plate with weather induced cancellations/alterations in the last few weeks). I suspect that the only passengers who are likely to quibble about the letter are those like yourself who are already well aware of the situation and knew what was coming.

    Why not just enjoy the trip on offer and rejoice that such things are possible fifty years after we thought it had all ended - for good!

    Peter
     
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  16. acorb

    acorb Well-Known Member

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    Correct.
     
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  17. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Are you so sanguineous about things outside of trains that are fundamentally altered late in the day? I think the largesse you afford RTC et al is perhaps due to seeing them as an extension of volunteer run heritage organisations? Much as they might wish to trade upon that delusion, they ain't and feeling "lucky we still have steam trains 50 years on" is a pretty feeble retort, quite frankly. These are proper 21st century businesses taking bookings for products of an advertised quality and features with commensurate pricing. Of course the conditions are outside their control but they still have responsibilities to compensate appropriately if the service is not as charged for AND customers feel minded to seek redress. You believe they won't, so I don't see why being proactive about offering this would create any problem.
     
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  18. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Active Member

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    I think RTC and WCRC need to be left to get on with it really. It must be a nightmare figuring out the logistics for the many movements for all these tours and the movement of steam from base to Carlisle and from Farington back to base must require a fair bit of effort if it is a total steam ban on the WCML. I could quite easily see the logistics still being worked out the reason RTC have had to leave communications until now. In their defence, the description on the tour page is at the top in bold and includes the mention of diesel assistance on the steam leg.
     
  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Fair comments Ian but as of yesterday there was no mention to prospective customers of the prevailing circumstances. I am sympathetic but the diligence often leaves a lot to be desired even outside current special measures. It seems to me an element of complacency having had the major market share for so long. There wouldn't be an opportunity for new suppliers seeking to enter the fray otherwise, would there?
     
  20. torgormaig

    torgormaig Active Member Friend

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    Sorry but I feel that life is too short to get wound up about things that you can do nothing about. The fifty years on thing is my personal view and I still fine it hard to believe we can enjoy so much steam in so many forms fifty years on from that night at Preston in Aug '68 when I seriously thought I would never seen another steam hauled train on the main line again. Feeble retort or not , that's how I feel.

    Peter
     
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