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South Coast Steam and S160 3278

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Corbs, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    What is the reasoning behind this decision? Surely the loco has its own war identity and record?

    Just curious!

    Keith
     
  2. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    There is such a thing as "An Ask Too Far"! We are humbled and grateful that the other S160 operators are getting behind the idea of the biggest gathering of the class in the UK since 1945. Together with the 8F and several Austerity 0-6-0STs they will tell the story of WW2 and the untold story of post war reconstruction in Europe. There will come a time soon enough when the big WDs are back in harness, but it isn't 2015. Riddles will have to wait his turn. 2015 is the Year of the S160 - and for that we owe thanks to US Colonel J W Marsh, for designing them, and General Carl R Gray who commanded the US rail troops in Europe, 26,000 men, and ran 'em, pretty much everywhere.

    As for why the new name and number - the name is changing, from Franklin D Roosevelt, because there is no tradition in the British Army of naming locos after politicians. The new number reflects the significant cohort among our team of Longmoor Military Railway veterans. The wartime history of the engine, in Italy, speaks for itself. The new identity places greater emphasis on Remembrance & Commemoration, which we take very seriously.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  3. There was just such a commemoration at Howarth when the S160 and the Riddles Austerity re-entered service. A service of remembrance was held at Howarth, you can see pictures of it at

    http://steammemories.blogspot.co.uk/
     
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  4. I was up at the Keighley Worth Valley Railway this morning and there lo and behold was an S160 in charge. Superb engine. you can see my videos on.

    http://steammemories.blogspot.co.uk/
     
  5. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick New Member

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    Alexander? Anzio?
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Franklin D Roosevelt may have been an American politician but at the time of the manufacture and supply to European theatre of WW2 he was, in fact The President of the United States and as such their Armed Forces Commander -in-Chief. He may not have designed or built these locomotives but it was with his approval that they were built and sent to Europe.
    To replace his name, in my view, is a quite retrograde step.
    What better form of remembrance and commemoration ( the words used in geekfindergenerals reply) is there - and obviously has been in the past - to honour one of Britain's greatest friends and supporters of the dark hours of WW2.
     
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  7. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Member

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    For a group engaged with history, to change their locomotive's own history for publicity reasons seems absurd.
     
  8. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick New Member

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    It isn't exactly unprecedented. 90733 and 90775 were never BR engines, 30075 isn't even a 'real' USA tank, 'Yarmouth' isn't really 'Yarmouth', there are plenty of Austerity tanks masquerading as J94s, and technically speaking 'Royal Scot' is not the real 'Royal Scot'.
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    You mean like the LMS did with Royal Scot and Coronation to name but two examples? :)
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And as President he was Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces.

    Edit : Greenway had already pointed this out. Should have read his post more thoroughly.
     
  11. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Well, at least I appreciate the support of confirmation and not being corrected. ;)
     
  12. I have sympathy with much of the arguments on both sides. Here the Worth Valley there was a simple service of remembrance when both the S160 and the Riddles 90733 were brought back into service and it was the US naval attaché who attended on behalf of the United States forces. Remembrance should be for the thousands who lost their lives in the fight for freedom and indeed those who are still giving their lives on our behalf. Figureheads are all well and good and Roosevelt was a good friend of the UK in those dark days. There are pictures of the remembrance service on the KWVR site and mine also. Yesterday both wartime engines were running, the S160 and Riddles 90733, video's at

    http://steammemories.blogspot.co.uk/
     
  13. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    Just out of passing curiosity, do any of the posters who have reacted negatively in the last few days actually know what the new name for 3278 will be? Or why we chose it? I see no mention of such knowledge although I understand the affection many feel for FDR.

    The decision to change the name was taken in consultation with the stakeholders in 3278 who matter; first and foremost the owner, whose passion, persistence and cash bought it from Greece in the first place and made it run at a time when they were not exactly the height of fashion in UK. Second, the volunteers who are doing a lot of the work this time around, who wish the locomotive to respect and comply with Royal Engineers (ROD) loco naming policy as it has stood for 100 years, and thirdly, the USATC 757th Transportation Battalion - Rail. Their view counts because our members fought with them in Iraq in 2003, running supply trains under fire from Basra Port. That, with defence cuts on both sides of the pond, was the last hurrah for Allied military railroaders and railwaymen working together, which they had been doing since 1917. UK can't do it any more, railway operating is no longer a British Army capability. Soon the Americans won't be able to either. We listen to them and share a profound collective memory with them. They like the new name and are attending the naming ceremony next year. If the change worried them or they thought it was anti-American, they wouldn't touch it - or us - with the proverbial sh*tty stick.

    We are perhaps more respectful of our history than some of the more brusque/ill-tempered posters here suggest. There has only ever been one other officially named named S160 in the UK or theatres we deployed them to, the Longmoor instructional example, which was scrapped in 1957. Suggesting that Roosevelt was a soldier goes rather further than he ever claimed for himself.

    Finally, all locomotives, from Catch Me Who Can to the new Prince of Wales, are named for publicity purposes. Otherwise it is just a waste of brass and effort. I think the military community will appreciate the new (but steeped in military railway/railroad tradition and dignity) name when it is unveiled.

    Thank you, as always, for your interest.

    Neil
     
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  14. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick New Member

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    So can we infer from that that she will be named "Carl R Gray Jr"?
     
  15. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    No ill tempers, just others viewpoints based on what was posted here. This is, after all, a Forum i.e. debating place

    I do sense some concerns that you have about other viewpoints: your reply is very defensive. Anyway, it is up to those, I guess, who foot the bills to say what tune the piper will play. But that still does not mean other folks can have an opinion. So, at least the loco exists and will operate well under whatever name it is given.
     
  16. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    I completely understand the feelings on both sides of the argument. However, I think that a mutually agreeable compromise may be possible. What if the old Franklin D. Roosevelt 'plates were to be offered to the other owners of UK-based S160s? Feedback from other loco owners suggests that Joe Public like to see "named" locos (hence why 45407 became The Lancashire Fusilier, for example). Surely, somebody would be pleased to accept a set of nameplates to add to their S160?
     
  17. nickt

    nickt New Member

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    If I owned a loco I doubt if I would give it a name simply because a set of plates was available.
     
  18. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Having enjoyed a very hospitable period alongside the RCT (as was) at Longmoor when they kindly accommodated David Shepherd's locomotives, Clan Line, Blackmore Vale, the Ivatt tank and Lord Fisher, I for one, am pleased to see a consolidation of the role of the army in railway matters both during wartime and subsequently. If that involves the appropriate commemoration of people and machines through names and changes of names then so be it. As for the publicity point, well there is good and bad publicity for the right and wrong reasons. I view this as good publicity for the right reasons.
     
  19. martin butler

    martin butler Member

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    Were any USATC S160'S operated by the British army? the only one i know of was at longmoor, WD700?
    There are only 3 uk liveries that this loco can carry, USTC grey,or black, or Longmoor blue, if you wish to commemorate the types history, why change the number, it was built as 3278 , unless you wish to paint it in helinic state railway livery
    i think there are politics at play here, re name and re number the loco to remove its past seems to be the only reason i can come up with , my personal view would be to if its to reflect military engines and the british army is paint it longmoor blue and if you want to re name it, re name it as the designer.
     
  20. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    I give below our formal response to this particular comment. I trust you find it useful.

     
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