If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by The Black Hat, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As the record will show Sidmouth asked a general question about heritage railway structures. I answered that.
    I’m surprised that having apparently been a member for so long 60044 professes ignorance. Even a cursory read of the annual Report and Accounts would show the situation and an update to members was included in the Spring 2024 issue of Moors Line. The PLC owns some assets and has always been the holder of the LRO. The majority of the railway’s assets are owned by the charitable Trust. As explained earlier LRO’s are not transferable.
     
  2. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    952
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I didnt say I didn't know - I asked for confirmation that what I believed was actually true! No question asked is ever a stupid one, nor are they always asked in ignorance!
     
    Paul42 and Sunnieboy like this.
  3. jimbrettell

    jimbrettell New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It's 2025 and my patience with the NYMR has finally run out. My membership will cease in March as I've cancelled the Direct Debit. My association and love of the railway goes back a long way and was the major reason for buying a small holiday home in Pickering some 15 years ago. The railway was pencilled-in for the long term, for support and enjoyment,. But, lacking any great railway knowledge or skills, active volunteering was only ever going to be likely in some administrative capacity. Sadly, my one attempt in this aspiration was summarily dispensed with and without the courtesy of an explanation. But that's all water under the bridge, albeit an experience that can now be viewed as a harbinger of subsequent corporate and systemic behaviour.

    Anyone with involvement, interest or knowledge of the NYMR can plainly see it's lost its way and on a downward spiral, however those in control remain steadfastly in denial. All the siren and well-argued protestations on social media have no effect whatsoever and as a result there continues a steady departure of highly skilled volunteers and financial supporters to other heritage railways. Over the last year I've personally had many conversations with men of a certain age who have re-written their Wills and shifted allegiance. Of course the NYMR will never know much of this, but even if they did it would not make one jot of difference because they would remain steadfast in closing their eyes and ears to any criticism.

    How on earth did we arrive at this state of affairs is something I've asked myself many times. Maybe it's just the inevitable result of an organisation that's grown too big and turned into a business? Perhaps it's just not possible to cater for the needs and interests of volunteers alongside those of bureaucracy and managerialism beyond a certain critical point? It strikes me that the saga of the house magazine, Moors Line, is as good an example as any. Much cherished by members and a damn good read, it's enlarged and corporately prepared replacement lacks any utility or interest and is consigned quickly to recycling rather than bookshelf. Management however will say its makeover was necessary and well received and just like volunteer surveys, confirms all's well.

    An impasse has been reached whereupon a parting of the ways is sadly inevitable. A tipping point means that financial constraints have now been reached. The wage bill will inexorably rise as the experienced volunteer input recedes. There won't even be agreement as to the reasons and if truth be known, I'm bored with them being recited. There's no shared vision; no sense of genuine engagement; no prospect of a change in culture or direction that would make me feel hopeful. Other heritage railways are available.
     
    Hirn, jon5051, unslet and 15 others like this.
  4. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    952
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    To Lineisclear: see, it's no just me that feels this way. Wake up and smell the coffee!
     
  5. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    10,043
    Likes Received:
    9,362
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    with the benefit of hindsight is there anything you would have done differently ?

    I'm also curious as the NYMR changed its structure , what was the Director retention like ? I presume fewer needed but did those that stand down remove maybe too much nymr experience ?
     
  6. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,766
    Likes Received:
    5,744
    I know nothing about the person mentioned by huochemi and therefore cast no aspersion. However there have been at least two instances of individuals with lots of dosh acquiring power in heritage railways and then acting in ways that have upset many other individuals. I don't think I need to name the railways that I have in mind.
     
  7. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    952
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    usly

    If it is the individual that I'm thinking it probably is, they have generously supported a wide variety of projects and have sought little, if anything, in exchange. The NYMR has been very little in that it has had at least two other, possibly more, supporters like that., but it needs to attract more and is its present attitude and behaviour going to do that? The more worrying risk is attracting people who want something in return for their donations, things that may be contrary to the aims and aspirations of the Trust and its members.
     
    jumper likes this.
  8. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I never doubted it. Reading Jim’posts on another forum meant it came as no surprise. It makes me sad because in essence the complaint is that the NYMR is not what Jim wants it to be. Obviously its concerning that anyone feels that way but the real sadness is that it can’t be what Jim and probably 60044 want. It’s worth reading HRA CEO Steve Oates excellent article in the current issue of Steam Railway. All heritage railways are having to adapt. It’s just that they are not all at the same stage in the trajectory. Financial, regulatory and demographic changes are forcing them to behave more and more as corporate businesses and to rely increasingly on paid staff Not everyone is going to find that acceptable.
     
  9. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    8,007
    The real sadness is surely that a place cannot be found for those that want to give their time for free. The statement “never pay someone to do what a volunteer can be found to do” needs to be engraved onto every heritage railway manager and director desk, chair, heart. That doesn’t make for easy management, and I’m sorry but I have seen too many opt for the “easy way”. (I do accept, and have said myself, that the demographic and other changes do drive a certain amount of unavoidable drift to paid staff in some areas and in some new areas).
     
    MellishR, Paul42 and green five like this.
  10. THE MELTER

    THE MELTER Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    63
    Occupation:
    ENGINEER
    Location:
    BLACK COUNTRY
    This is all a bit “ Animal Farm” now
    The argument is about who is Hercules and who is Napoleon.
    It’s going nowhere
     
  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,099
    Likes Received:
    27,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'll look that out next time I'm in the WH Smith reading room.

    But, deep down, I do not accept that the shift to behaving more and more as corporate businesses is necessary, desirable or sustainable. There are features of the changing landscape that will require more professionalism and structured ways of working. But I'd suggest that the reality of long term sustained losses means that there should be more emphasis on volunteering, and in harnessing the considerable power of volunteers.

    If I look at @jimbrettell's post, what strikes me most is not the paean against managerialism, but the loss of soul. A willing volunteer was "summarily dispensed with and without the courtesy of an explanation". Whatever the cause, whatever may have been done to explain, it is the impression he was left with that matters most. We then see wiling volunteers leave early, and change their wills - representing a significant (probably 7 figure) opportunity cost.

    We all know that it's not possible to change without upsetting some - that's understood. But this feels deeper, and to be mortgaging the future - with little obvious sign of short-term success either.
     
    jimbrettell, Paul42 and Diamond Gaz like this.
  12. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I agree wholeheartedly with one caveat. It’s usually what volunteers can be found to do. Therein lies the challenge. Volunteering is declining across all sectors. I have advocated the condition that a search for volunteers should be made before recruiting an employee but it would be naive to assume its always a one to one alternative.
     
  13. Sidmouth4me

    Sidmouth4me Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    341
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Malton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I’m sorry for the negative experience you received when attempting to volunteer on the NYMR, which was completely different from mine. I too had little railway knowledge when I joined 5 years ago, but now volunteer 3 days a week initially in an administrative role but now active on the trains. Yes the railway has gone through change in recent years eg governance of the Trust Board, gift aiding, annual pass etc, but that is a railway reacting to external events (COVID, fuel and cost of living crisis etc), and I’m sure the railway will continue to change in order to survive and prosper. But I leave management to manage whilst I continue to volunteer.

    Another recent argument on here has been the apparently high percentage (in terms of total cost) of employed staff, but I see that as a consequence of running a timetabled operation, needing to ensure all necessary posts are filled on a daily basis initially with volunteers or otherwise paid staff. Eg in the booking office volunteers choose in advance the shifts they would like to work, then the roster clerk will back fill with seasonal paid staff to ensure all posts are filled rather than having the booking office closed that day. In an ideal world there would be no paid seasonal staff, but then I get to choose when I want (and without pressure) to volunteer whilst the railway continues to remain running.
     
    Johnme101 and 47406 like this.
  14. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    7,415

    You are assuming that all criticism is coming from a reactionary volunteer old guard who are stuck in a time warp, thus making it easy for you to dismiss rather than listen to the detail of complaints. I'd suggest that this is far from the reality of the situation. We as volunteers all know and understand that the preservation world is changing around us and most of us are willing to embrace these changes, provided 1) that we are incorporated into them and 2) that they give us a better railway. My impression is that that you are failing on both counts.

    With regard to the volunteer workforce it appears that the new management do not understand where they have come from and what drives their loyality. So rather than try to capitalise on their expertise and good will by bringing them on board it has been seen as easier to ride roughshod over them. After all there are more important problems to deal with than wasting time making sure that the volunteers are on side and feel included in the changes. I think it is called throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    But to me the most disheartining aspect of the railway is the current state of its assets. I had two days on the railway last week and was on three different locos. All three were rough as hell and one was quite deplorable. Meanwhile the track is deteoriating and speed restrictions abound. I know that the infrastructure is ageing and it all costs money to fix but the current state of the railway does not suggest to me that the new management structure knows how to get on top of these issues.

    I know that it is easy for me to sit here and criticise the running of the railway. It is something that is way above my pay grade and I have no desire to dictate how it should be run. But a bit of humility in understanding of the concerns of volunteers young and old and some effort in making them feel that they have a role to play in the future of the railway would be much appreciated. The need for change is well understood and most of us want to be part of it but at present there is a feeling that we just have to get on with the changes being imposed because management knows best. That does not feel very inclusive to me.

    Peter
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2025
  15. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,904
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yet, to get paid staff that are capable of doing the job is getting harder and harder, especially in engineering disciplines.
     
    Hirn likes this.
  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,099
    Likes Received:
    27,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I agree entirely that it may be necessary to have paid staff to ensure that all roles are covered every day.

    However, I'm unclear why NYMR seems to be so much more dependent on paid staff, and that dependency is increasing. The railway has always run a timetabled operation - and in some years, for more days. @Steve has written before of the work he's done ensuring that footplate rosters are covered.

    It's often said that change is the one constant in life - and it's true. What's unclear about the current set of changes at NYMR is how they are, taken in the round, strengthening the position of the railway.

    The railway is making a loss, year on year. That is not sustainable. That means that, year on year, it is paying more to run trains that it is charging to travel on them. We know that there is limited scope to increase prices, because the visitor numbers are falling and basic supply & demand tells us that increasing prices will reduce demand. That means that, to be sustainable, the railway needs to cut its costs.

    We know that many costs on a railway are mileage related - things like fuel and water. We also know that others are determined by frequency as much as mileage - periodic repairs, for example. Others, like payroll, are basically fixed.

    Accounts on here and elsewhere show that attempts are being made to cut costs. We've seen discussion about reducing the number of running days, and the day-to-day fleet requirements. We've seen mention of maintenance being limited to what is essential, and @torgormaig's post today suggests the limits to what is possible there.

    But we then keep coming back to a message that volunteers can't be relied upon, as the balance between paid and volunteer shifts towards paid - on a railway that already has an unusually high payroll relative to income.

    @Lineisclear mentions that he's advocated a "look for volunteers first" policy - I find it an indictment of the railway that such a policy hasn't been in place for decades. But I know from my own experience that such policies (e.g. use an existing employee rather than a new hire or a contractor) are easily gamed. I'd have much more confidence in the determination of the board to constrain staff costs if the policy were to require no net increase in paid head count, and to focus much more on how volunteers can be used productively - across the organisation. I'd be much more comfortable if there was evidence of clear succession planning, with a view towards bringing volunteers through.
     
    Paul42, Diamond Gaz and 5944 like this.
  17. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You must think the boards and senior management team are wet behind the ears if it was simply a case of cutting costs. There is little scope to do that, including reducing the employee headcount without cutting the railway back to the point where it would struggle to provide enough interest for volunteers. The opportunity you miss is developing new sources of income.
     
    Spitfire likes this.
  18. 60044

    60044 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    952
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Salisbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There has been another flurry of posts, too many to respond to individually, but I think a few general issues can be summed up.

    1. Lineisclear seems to think that none of those complaining wants to see change. In fact, most of us have put up with and supported an organisation that has been very commercial almost since its inception.. We have tolerated that provided it has remained even slightly true to its roots of being a heritage railway, but now that is coming under increasing threat more and more of us are questioning whether it is worth continuing to support. Sadly, it seems that an increasing number are deciding that it is not, and it would take someone who is monumentally insensitive, or just plain stupid, to fail to understand how potentially fatal that can be in t he medium to longer term.

    2. It seems probable that the NYMR has made another loss in the order of around £0.5M this year, if the internal rumours are true. The sale of 76079 may not have been proposed as a fundraiser, but I suspect it will become that within a year - and what will it achieve? - just the sustainment of an unaffordable workforce.

    3. Lineisclear says that he has advocated a "volunteers first" policy", but we have earlier heard from Steve that volunteers are discouraged from working at weekends (when most of them would prefer to come) at the mpd because the paid staff don't want to have to come in to supervise them. In my experience that was the case at the C&W workshops too, after Brian Crouch left - I don't know if that is still the case, but I suspect it is, and I suspect the same is true of people wanting to volunteer to do office work; I stand to be corrected, say it isn't so! So, the question has to be asked whether the paid staff have been encouraged to enable volunteers to play a role.

    4. I for one do think the management are "wet behind the ears", if that is a charitable way of expressing what I really think! Where are the new methods of developing income? I see only cutbacks everywhere apart from lineside maintenance, and the grants that attracts pay only for the work - they do not generate revenue. So where is this new income coming from? It certainly doesn't seem to be from new business opportunities!
     
  19. Simon Smith

    Simon Smith New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2022
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    South West
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    All heritage railways need to adapt to new ways of surviving, joe public bums on seats does not pay the bills anymore and hasn't for many years.

    Lets face it, if the likes of the NYMR, Swanage etc who are in tourist hot spots can't make it pay then what hope do the rest have?

    I would go as far to say that to survive they are not a heritage railway but need to be tourist attractions with heritage train rides, plus dining, exclusive events etc as the offering.
     
    Spitfire likes this.
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,099
    Likes Received:
    27,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I make no comment on whether management are or are not wet behind the ears. However, I made my analysis on the (admittedly simplistic) basis that a heritage railway earns its crust by selling tickets to travel - and that with a falling level of demand, getting enough income by that route is seriously challenging. "New sources of income" are, bluntly, just variations on the theme - and ones where I observe that the railway has if anything retrenched in recent years (e.g. weddings). In the absence of those new propositions (and Gift Aid was undoubtedly one such), it's entirely reasonable to hold management to account for what they are doing with what they have got.

    As @60044 has reminded us, this is a railway that has long allowed volunteering to be constrained by unwillingness to have staff work at weekends - and then complains that volunteers aren't coming forward sufficiently.
     

Share This Page