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Manning Wardles "YEO" and "EXE" new-build

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by Old Kent Biker, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm sure the two sites can communicate with regard expertise. I doubt erecting them side by side would actually achieve much cost saving, since erecting a loco is essentially a fitting job, i.e. the cost is in the labour. The cost savings in making two will be in design costs, patterns, bulk orders of components etc, which don't require the two together. I could imagine a degree of moving components around if that makes sense on setting up time on machines (i.e. "we'll turn all the hand rail knobs for both locos, and you can produce both sets of brake rods" etc etc).

    It's a total guess, but my hunch is that there may not be many suitable workshops around that could afford the space of having two simultaneous locos being erected, so it is possibly a decision that has been somewhat imposed on the project.

    Tom
     
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  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sounds to me as if manufacture / machining of the tricky bits is being centralised, with merely the assembly (merely? Yeah ... right!) being farmed out.

    At this point, the image at 2'05" in the clip needs explanation. I can't make out if the motor is 12v or 24v and am wondering whether batteries are to be carried onboard, or in a bogie van.

    One thing surprised me, which was talk of these locos improving on 'the originals'. In all honesty, I thought that had been accomplished with Lyd and that the machines for the L&B would be looking to improve on that.

    I was interested to note the debate over driving wheels, to tyre or not to tyre. Here, I'll admit what I've seen since completion of Lyn has changed my own view, which (for anything bigger than 'miniature' locos .... up to 10¼" to "scale" 15" gauge) wasn't favourable. Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
     
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  3. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    To be honest about all this there have been some lessons learned from LYD and these are being added into the these two (four) locos as they get built, while they may look the same, they are totally different it is like comparing the wright brothers flying machine to Concorde, both are aircraft but different.
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'd have gone with a modern twin prop, simply as Concorde would surely be best analogous to an IC125, but I take your point. Fair to classify the current newbuilds as Rev 4.0?

    I'd be interested to learn about how new Yeo and Exe differ from Lyd.
     
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  5. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    I seem to recall that someone @meeee perhaps? put up a list of 'operational issues' with Lyd along with some pictures to show the problems (this was some time ago).
    From memory these were things luke inaccessible oiling points, issues with the ashpan etc.
    I would imagine that the FR would have rectified some or all of these issues during the last overhaul, but if not then I think the L&B would be trying to avoid known problems in new locos.
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Cheers Keith. That sort of 'operational stuff' makes perfect sense. I was wondering whether things (e.g.such as valve design details) on the steam circuit on Lyd had proven sufficiently successful to repeat on the new new L&B MWs.
     
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  7. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Some of the problems have been rectified, some you will have to accept if you want to build one of those locos.

    Lyd's performance has been much improved since overhaul. One of the main changes was to open out the tubes at the firebox end. They were originally swaged down to produce very thick ligaments but this restricted the gas flow too much and the steaming suffered. A new ashpan has been fitted which is also a dramatic improvement. In typical Festiniog fashion though it is nearly there but not quite. There are no dampers which is not very helpful if you wait at Tan-y-bwlch for an hour. The loco is a lot more free steaming and consequently less stressful now.

    Unfortunately the problems with the valves are mitigated rather than solved. If you're going to run at 200psi and then superheated there is no magic solution. Even with balanced slide valves you usually notched up before opening main valve, unless you were feeling brave. A mechanical lubricator has now been fitted as well as the hydrostatic one. The fourth notch on the reverser has also been removed and the loco is now only rated at 8 coaches not 9. 7 or 8 coaches seemed to be what it was most happy at. A lot of the design choices on the motion and valve gear seem to work though as there was little wear in these areas. Just the valve itself had trouble.

    Driving is reasonably comfortable. There are quite a lot of oiling points some of which you can't see to get though in the morning. Firing however is best achieved if you are only 2ft tall and can see though solid steel to the injector overflows. Corners still come as a bit of a surprise to this loco especially in reverse. The ride is very smooth in a straight line though.

    Tim
     
  8. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for that Tim.
    So if you were the L&B, what additional changes would you be looking at making while keeping the loco looking essentially 'as built'? Lyn was changed to piston valves while retaining the original appearance - would that be something worth doing on the MWs?
     
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  9. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Personally I would give the design to someone like the late Phil Girdlestone or Mr Porter himself if he was still alive, but then there are a number of improvements to the design itself that have been carried out on the Porter design 15inch L&BR 2-6-2 in Argentina which I think also need to be explored.
     
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  10. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Oh, Mr Porta, what can I do?
    I want to go to Barnstaple, but I'm stuck at Parracombe.
    Seriously though, I believe David Wardale is still with us. I wonder what his take would be on the product?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
  11. MPR

    MPR New Member

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    Check out about half way down this page - it seems that a very similar project was started
    https://csrail.org/newsroom/tag/advanced+steam
     
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  12. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that MPR, that is an interesting article I had some how missed, as far as I am aware, Lyn was built using much of what is called current and modern steam technology, it has been a few years since I was involved with anything like this. but I think it is worth continuing to be looked at and used.

    On this subject which appeared in that article I notice Phil standing next door to a loco project which I have heard about but know little about it or where it could end up and that is the LRN loco.

    I have been told that it is in store somewhere in England, but not a direct location has been given to me, I would be keen to find out who the loco was built for Vale of Rheidol perhaps or the Brecon Mountain Railway. yet both driving forces are no more behind either railway and I think someone told me that one of the other partners has also passed away leaving just the single owner left.

    I have also been told that some of the guys on the Welsh Highland Railway where after if as well, but the deal fell through, I do hope that someone comes along with the money to get it finished as I think it would make a great addition to any of the 2ft gauge steam railways in the UK.
     
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  13. bantamd14

    bantamd14 New Member

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    I asked this question about the loco on this forum and was told that the frame of Yeo had been scrapped.
     
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  14. bantamd14

    bantamd14 New Member

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    Whilst you might have ended up with a very efficient steam loco if it was in the hands of the very capable Girdlestone and Porta, I don't think it would have looked much like a L&BR at the end of the day. So you have to ask what do you really want?
     
  15. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The ideal is surely external appearance as close as possible to the originals but internal differences to improve power and efficiency.
     
  16. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Yes that was the case, as I recall where they had sat for a number of years, they had not been supported in the right places and had become banana shaped, it would have cost to much to try to straighten them so they were scrapped, up to date methods of producing such frames (high pressure water cutters for instance) can produce a new set of frames in under a week depending on who you go to, Lyn's frames were produce by this method.

    The other thing which also got forgotten was to have a working business and construction plan for that project and a regular fundraising momentum. It did not help either that the plan was launched after the LYD project was started so a lot of the money that may have gone into the L&BR project drifted north to the FR Lyd project instead.

    As much as I would like to see a home grown Manning Wardle on the L&BR. I am afraid that there may not be the long term financial support for this project, as we can with in reason always ask for Lyd to visit, should the FR Mountaineers return to full working order then the FR will have at least two spare mid range locos without any work (which is as I understand it the reason why FR have not put any money in to the restoration of Mountaineer but have left it up to the Volunteers to do the fundraising for the project).

    Someone told me that they are looking to restore or get as many of the England locos working again, plus the Two ladies and Taliesin for light to mid season working and for the high season they will end up with 3 Fairlies, so both Mountaineer and Lyd may then become surplus to requirement.

    That being the case and should the L&BR be able to ever extend its running line, you have two idea size locomotives siting on the sidelines for the North Devon operation plus Lyn. Of course I should not forget Charles Wattock and AXE who are already in North Devon.

    Don't forget we have already had in the past a number of people come to the project promising the money to build a Manning Wardles for us, but only to disappear again, I won't hold my breath on this one as I might just turn blue waiting for something to happen.

    If you really want to get volunteers excited then why not look at a number of other narrow gauge missing locomotive designs, such as a Manifold 2-6-4T on 2ft gauge, a Campbeltown 0-6-2T (again on 2ft), the missing NWNGR 0-6-4T Beddgelert or going abroad for a moment how about a new Darjeeling C class 4-6-2 Pacific or a Decauville 0-6-6-0 Moroccan 60cm Mallet?

    I am sure we all have our own dream list of steam locomotives we would like to see rebuilt, but again I don't want to sound down on this latest Manning Wardle Project, I do wish it well, but I feel it needs to step up a gear or two if they are going to make any impact on getting built.
     
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  17. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    The project has only been going since Nov 2019 and we all know the chaos that happened through 2020 -2021 (and a bit of 2022!).

    So far, they seem to have got cylinders cast for 4 locos (I think also the end covers have been cast), wheels cast for pony trucks (2 locos), quotations awaited for "hornblocks, frame stretchers over the pony trucks, bogie frame stays, curved slotted links and slidebar brackets".

    I would say that's not bad going for a small group, relying on outside contractors and working through Covid.

    Now if you really feel that progress is too slow or you have some other issue with the group, then I'm sure they'd be delighted for you to join them and give them your help/finance.
     
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  18. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    On a personal basis I prefer to give to a loco project that appeals to me, which is exactly what Lyn did for me. I know others prefer the Manning Wardles and they did not give to the Lyn project preferring to keep their powder dry for this project, each to their own I think.

    All I am saying is for the Lyn project as I understand it when it went public 99% of the monthly contributions where taken up with in the first six months, since I haven't been sent any Accounts from the 762 group for a while now I can't give you a break down of just how many monthly contribution have been set up for the Manning Wardle Project.
     
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  19. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    I think, for the Ffestiniog, the Englands and the double Fairlies are their trademark locomotives. Mountaineer was an expedient for the 60's/70's, and is really not classically beautiful. She did the job though, when it seemed sufficiently unlikely that most of the piles of rust in the shed could ever hope to be restored. The Alcos were seemingly built for a short, hard life, then scrapping- there seems no option between routine servicing and total remanufacture, which could be seen as a poor use of resources compared with working on one of the original fleet.
    For the L&B, the Manning-Wardles are the signature locomotives. Great as Lyn is, I don't think one could claim to have recreated the L&B without at least a couple.
    To my eyes, Lyd seems to have sufficient visual differences from the originals, most notably the cab, that she seems more 'in the style of' than replica. If she were to become a long term resident in Devon, changes could be made to address these aesthetic considerations, but as that is not the owner's intent, I give my support to this 2MW's project.

    As to other replica narrow gauge projects being more preferable... The L&M Kitsons were stunners, but would they not be rather too wide for many 2' gauge lines, a 30 inch one would be great, but where to run it? She probably wouldn't be successful on the W&L as most locos aren't.
    I think some of us would rather pay to see examples from Collection'X' returned to working order than start other new builds. Those Beira locos for example....
     
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  20. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Hi Ross as I have been told by the management on more than one occasion they are not rebuilding the old L&BR, but creating a new up to date tourist version. After all it not us enthusiasts which pay the running bills, but we all wish to see certain loco types in action.

    I do agree with you view on the locos in collection X, however, again I have been told that the long term plan is to only restore one loco at a time and also depending on how much money there is in the Trust account at the time.

    If you just so happen to win the Euro lottery, I am sure the Trustees would welcome you with open arms if you wanted to see a certain loco restored to full working order.

    It gets a bit complicated in so far that as I understand it the Vof R and Collection X are two sperate charities and they are not the same one. Each has its own priorities to deal with.

    The problem for today is do you build new or do you try and restore a wreck? I guess it depends on your view point, if you want to see something pulling passengers and it is reliable then it has to be a new build. If however you want to see some of the museum exhibits working then don't expect it to last very long in this day of commercial operations, you might even find that any railway that does this will be making a special case to charge more for riding behind a heritage steam locomotive than a normal steam tourist ride.
     
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