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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    It would certainly be more credible and possibly more effective if all the groups could be coordinated at least and operate under a single banner to achieve the shared objectives.
     
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  2. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    I would agree with you, but has it ever happened in railway preservation? Genuine question BTW!
     
  3. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    I thought that was the purpose of the Trust but they seem to have become obsessed by the Parracombe problem and have lost sight of the other opportunities.

    By the way, can anybody indicate how the YVT Chelfham Mill appeal is going ?
     
  4. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    TR, WLLR, FR. With a very few exceptions on the FR these railways have always been “one” owning their locos and rolling stock as well as the infrastructure. (There are others).

    I think that the L and B is unique in having three groups, which are not formally linked, owning infrastructure. That’s possibly where the greatest coordination is needed.
     
  5. Biermeister

    Biermeister Member

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    Well, actually it is like building a jig-saw puzzle in the real. We have to hope that we can find all the pieces and EVENTUALLY get them joined up!
     
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  6. DaveE

    DaveE Member

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    Absolutely, a jig-saw where you know where some pieces are, some pieces are yet to be found and there is no indication of when they will be found, and just like a jig-saw some areas are looking complete and good, others are not. Eventually pieces will be found to start to link those areas up.

    I saw in an above post that it should be the Trust overseeing all the various groups etc, maybe not, it just needs communication between all groups. But I fear that is not that easy, all the groups have a history going some way back and before I got involved which sadly I don't think can be resolved.

    Maybe, just maybe, if a small few of us could get together, ones who have come along afterwards, and be go between, ambassadors, no power, just simply to get some sort of order to the whole, it might help.

    The reset that many call for doesn't need to be a dramatic affair, it just needs a little compromise, forgiveness, and communication, a small party of go betweens could achieve this maybe.
     
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  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Three thoughts on this, where I agree completely on the need for "compromise, forgiveness, and communication". The first is that organisational unity is something that needs to follow reconciliation. The second is that reconciliation requires movement from all parties, and cannot be successful if one group are dogmatic in their goals. Third is that co-ordination of different groups will always be difficult, with a high risk of future divergence.

    I'm tempted to suggest that an obvious 1st step for reconciliation would be to set aside the pursuit of disciplinary charges; not because it involves a "win" for someone, but simply because it is the highest profile example of something driving a wedge between people and groups on the railway.
     
  8. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    Find it hard to criticise anyone who is getting frustrated by the lack of progress and being ignored when making practical solutions to problems
     
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  9. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    OK, it's a fair question. As a more recent and younger trust member, and EA shareholder:

    1) the image that the various groups give to outsiders, never mind insiders, is one of competing fiefdoms
    2) there's an expectation from the public at large - and those members of the heritage world that don't read this thread that the Trust *is* the project to rebuild the L&B, which makes the proliferation of other groups - and the animosity with which various individuals seem to view various others - make the whole thing look incoherent.
    2a) within that, there's more than a suspicion that some people really want EA/YVT to be the F&WHR to the L&BRT's WHHR
    3) there's clearly a problem with relations - BUT I'm really not interested who said what to whom 20 years ago, 10 years ago, or last week - everyone should be working together, and if they can't do that, there's a serious problem
    4) the fact that there's 20 miles (give or take) of route to rebuild is really dangerous.

    The trust somewhere upthread were accused of a 'fixation' on Parracombe - perhaps they are, all I can say is that the other miles of empty line are distraction for people who either don't want to fight the trust or think 'I'll go and play elsewhere' when what is needed is to stand and fight the Trust.

    Never mind Snapper, or Barnstaple, or Chelfham, or any of the other places people run away to when they feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall at Woody Bay. People over 65 (say) who've spent their lives dreaming this dream might have to accept that they're not going to see very much more of the line relaid in their lifetime. But then everyone's got a choice to make - do they go elsewhere and lay a couple of hundred yards of other track, or do they feel that the single best thing that could be done in the next couple of years, for the future of a line that they're not going to see, is to do the hard yards of forcing reform and reconstitution of the trust?

    My own view, and obviously it's easy for me to say because I'm only just in my 40s, is that the latter course of action is where the effort needs to be.

    People, including me, have indicated how a change in the composition of the board of trustees might be brought about *if* people who know all the personalities, and live in Devon, fancied the couple of years of hard work that it would take. I can cheer it on from the sidelines up-country but I know I'm not best placed to do it myself. It needs grey hair, a presence on the spot, and an encyclopaedic knowledge of the situation and the key players.

    Sooner or later people like me are going to move down there, or bob up who already live there, and in 15 years time what's going to be the legacy of the people (in all groups) who make decisions now - at EA, L&BRT, YVT etc? What sort of situation are they going to hand on? In an ideal world it would be one railway, with three parts IMO - The trust to set direction along the 19 miles, the CIC to operate anything that's capable of being operated, and EA to buy land to give to the Trust for the CIC to operate in due course. Everything else is at best a distraction and at worst empire building, or the creation of alternative centres of power.

    I totally get why it has all happened the way it has, and I've heard a few of the stories. I can see why people have gone to play elsewhere on the route. But, and obviously this is just my opinion, while it has made them feel better I do think that the long term effect has been negative. The problem is the need to change the trust, but with 19 miles to play with it has been too easy for people to walk away without completely walking away. If the line had already been rebuilt then people would have the choice of forcing change or moving their labour to another railway. The L&B has got the perfect storm of overlapping (and occasionally more than a hint of competing) organisations on the same (relatively) short route.

    At the same time there's *still* after decades of effort, so little cohesion that everyone's able to paint their own vision onto the blank canvas of the route. In this and the MW thread alone in the past week or two we've had people who think everything should be rebuilt as it was, people wanting to walk away from WB and see what they can do down south, people who want to cancel the MW project (and build other things instead), etc.

    Bottom line (and I'm one voice amongst many - I've got no special insight) - for me it's time for heads to be banged together, and a one railway approach for the whole 19 miles to be drawn up that says 'this is what is going to happen between Lynton and Barnstaple'. Somehow, even if it involves resignations from the boards of all the groups, I'd want L&BRT and EA at least to be singing off the same hymn sheet and with a minimum number of people members of both boards within the next 18 months-36 months* at most.

    Frankly even if that means good people giving up and walking away (in all groups) as well as bad people, then it'll probably be worth it in the long run.

    But, seriously, what do I know, I'm just a newbie with a fresh pair of eyes?

    Who occasionally looks in disbelief at what I have joined.

    *probably just about long enough to force through an EGM with a properly briefed membership, then be making overtures to EA.

    Apologies if that's a bit stream of consciousness, I've only had 10 minutes!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2023
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  10. Snail368

    Snail368 New Member

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    I think that overall in the interests of long term unity, we need to establish a simple group, involving all interested bodies. It doesn't need any powers (to begin with at least), it would be a forum to discuss matters, iron out any competing interests and also to offer mutual support. That would need to be the first step. The second step might be to identify where mutual assistance could be offered and action this - for example volunteer working parties, loan of equipment, etc. Eventually this might lead to a situation where sensible leadership and management led to a unification (perhaps under different banners) of the overall project. With some negotiation and compromises I'm sure that it is possible, but a start needs to be made.

    I'm in my mid-50s and hope to retire down to North Devon in the next 10 years and want to volunteer when I do, but I wouldn't want to join one side of an entrenched railway (I'm a member of both L&B and Exmoor Associates - as are many people!) - hopefully bridges can built sooner rather than later, but they will need to be built from both sides.
     
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  11. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    In many ways that sounds like the Partnership Development Group established on the WSR some years ago as a way of getting all the 'stakeholders' talking to each other. Those on here who are familiar with how well (or not) that turned out might like to comment further.....
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2023
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  12. Kanonkopdrinker

    Kanonkopdrinker New Member

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    By the way, can anybody indicate how the YVT Chelfham Mill appeal is going ?[/QUOTE]


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  13. Kanonkopdrinker

    Kanonkopdrinker New Member

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    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
    I understand that there will be an update in the next issue of the YVT newsletter, Viaduct Views.

    David


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  14. Snail368

    Snail368 New Member

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    I can see your point, but if we want things to progress (which we all do presumably), the different groups need to establish good communications as a preliminary to anything else. So what alternative is there to talking?
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ages ago, in a different universe when the WSR was the main source of discussion about dysfunctional governance, I made a suggestion that heritage railways really needed to cover four functions:
    1. An asset owner (land, infrastructure, rolling stock ...)
    2. An operator
    3. A fundraiser
    4. An overarching governance to set the strategy
    What you are suggesting is not too far from that model - the Trust to set direction (4 on my list); EA to buy land (which is essentially a fundraising task, i.e. 3); CIC to operate (2) and presumably the Trust to be asset owner, receiving EA land as required. (1).

    Four functions could be covered by one organisation (which is essentially the IoWSR model) or multiple (the Bluebell model has 3 organisations; with the plc covering asset owner and operator; Trust covering fundraiser and Society covering governance and strategy). What you can't have is multiple organisations duplicating one function; in particular, you can only have one operator (for safety reasons) and one organisation setting strategy. What I perceive within the wider L&B family is that it is the strategic direction that is lacking, but that in turn has led to fragmented ownership of land and fragmented fundraising.

    It's the WSR problem again. Viewed from the outside, if I want to "join the L&B", who do I join? If I want to donate money towards reinstating the line, who do I give it to? And most importantly, if I do either of those things, what gives me confidence that there is an overall vision and strategy that will work towards a reinstated railway? I

    Slow I can cope with; but not rudderless.

    Tom
     
  16. Ross Buchanan

    Ross Buchanan New Member

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    In 2017, I had the pleasure of travelling behind the very new built LynL & B today and it appeared that years of hoping, planning, fundraising, building, restoring had finally coalesced into something rather magnificent.
    Early issues with Lyn and the pointwork at Killington Lane, whilst widely known, resulted in silence from the L&B turning a moderately serious problem into a PR catastrophe, and causing serious doubts about the leadership.

    Since then.....the whole thing seems, from afar, to have stagnated.
    There's a planning application, send money. How's it going? We're not telling. Don't question, we have a plan, send cash, don't ask questions.....

    I know there's progress being made all along the line, but at Woody Bay?

    Why has the Manning-Wardle project not gained the interest and support that was hoped for? Its not because Lyd already exists, it is because the project appears to have stagnated. When one eventually finds the 762 club, there's news from April about cylinder covers, and they've bought a lamp. Doesn't encourage one to reach for the chequebook
     
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  17. DaveE

    DaveE Member

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    Just had a chance to catch up on posts.

    I think the problem is in looking for drastic changes could have a negative effect over all and increase the fractures for even longer.

    All the parts are working in their own way, EA have done great in securing track bed, we have seen some majorly important acquisitions in the past few years by both EA and the trust, Woody Bay is successful, and although many may see the planning as a failure at first glance I can assure you when you look into it it isn't as simple as it appears.

    The problem we have is the fractured groups have a fair amount of resentment and mistrust between them. I know most of the back story and finding a resolution is very difficult indeed.

    Tom may have the ideal set up above, but perhaps that only works where it can be set up at the very beginning, and in this case would have been many decades ago. To try and apply that model at the moment, and possibly forcefully, I think could cause more damage and cause further fractures than perhaps bargained for.

    What I am interested in hearing is ways forward without nuclear options, the people at the top in all parts of the L&B family over time have achieved miracles, right from the start to the present day.

    How many back then thought the we would ever have as much as we have now in terms of stations, length of trackbed, rolling stock, and successes at Woody Bay, Chelfham, Snapper and so on.

    All the people in management now, across the L&B family, have made those achievements and many were deemed impossible. They have experience and knowledge we cannot afford to lose.

    So, we won't get what many are looking for on drastic changes without causing more damage and in my view will carry on the divisions for possibly another 20 years.

    How can this be done in a way which brings unity and healing instead of continued bitterness and arguments?
     
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  18. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    I'll just pick up on these two points for now , my volunteering is based between Snapper and Bratton Fleming, on the stretches of EA trackbed and at Chelfham Station and occasionally at BFS and i think i can speak for most of the volunteers who also work in the Yeo Valley when i say absolutely none of us are running away from anything, none of us are going to play elsewhere, what we have in the south is not a 'distraction at all, we are clearing trackbed and renovating Stations and why shouldn't we! Nearly 90 years of neglect has left a bit of a mess that we are trying to sort out steadily and if that in time extends to repairing the trackbed , getting a base laid and fencing it all off its all positive work, if we can achieve what we want to achieve there will be a trackbed ready to go when the time comes, we choose to be here because of the location to where many of us live and actually Chelfham is the first place many locals find out about the railway in the first place.
    I personally over the years have been very outspoken against certain trustee's as I'm sure a few who know me on here will agree, there is one dominant figure who i think has wanted total control for many years and after a failed attempt to underhandedly gain control of EA has been the cause of the rift and the total loss of trust within that person along with a couple of others who it seems would rather EA didn't exist at all, had EA been under their control personally dont think it would have been as successful as it has been, there have been benefits of it being an independent company , irrespective of the issues between EA and the Trust trackbed has changed hands when it was needed and there is a good interaction with the newer trustee's.
    The biggest problem where you talk about no-one wanting to 'fight the trust' is down to the fact that for 17+ years members have believed all the spin that's come from the Trust, ( and that is no disrespect to the members ) who have convinced the members over those years that they are doing a wonderful job resulting in no-one holding the Trust to account of their actions, at least now there are some questioning these actions, and the true colours of some trustee's is beginning to show through. If only a copy of the minutes of the last trustee meeting was available!
     
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  19. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    I can tell you exactly how this can be achieved Dave, as will many many others
     
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  20. DaveE

    DaveE Member

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    I understand and acknowledge the view of those you speak of, but I also hear the view of others who have alternative views. Somewhere compromise must come in, we have to find middle ground here somehow.
     
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